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MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

FiOS Phone/Internet Battery Backup Unit Aux Power Connector

Looks like there was a thread sort of about this that's too old to reply to, so let me try anew.

Does anyone know the actual dimensions of the coaxial auxiliary power connector for the Cyberpower CS36A12V2 BBU? The user's guide says "1.3 mm" which is obviously the inside (hole) size, but there are a few connectors with that ID which have different outside diameters. If you have one that fits properly, could you measure it for me if you don't have a part number?

Getting the right one the first time would be nice. And if you haven't guessed, I want to make up a cable for connecting an external battery for those times when we have a power failure for greater than a few hours.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

said by MikeRivers:

Cyberpower CS36A12V2 BBU?

Is this a FiOS system component?

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

Yes, the Cyberpower unit is what they call the BBU (Battery BackUp). It supplies several voltages to the fiber interface box (ONT?) and has a 12v sealed lead acid battery to run it when the AC power fails. The battery is good for 4-8 hours, and can be supplemented by an additional external battery that's connected through this connector I'm looking for.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

I'm familiar with an earlier APC model of FiOS BBU. That unit has an Aux In jack as well. I have successfully used a Type H coaxial DC power plug from Radio Shack 274-1571, but the fit is not right. ID is indeed 1.3mm. Type H OD is 3.5mm which is a loose fit. The OD 4.0mm on a Radio Shack 274-1532 appears to be correct, but its ID 1.7mm is too loose.

So, for my APC model, I'm looking for a 4.0mm/1.3mm connector. I asked if the CyberPower model was deployed as FiOS equipment because I'd imagine VZ was looking for a second source and probably asked for the same specs.

If you read through that other thread, it's pretty clear the jack is only used to power the BBU when the internal battery is depleted or disconnected. Verizon never made the adapter cables widely available, although I talked to one local FiOS installer who said he saw them at the beginning (back in 2006 in my area) but they were never deployed.


MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

said by birdfeedr:

I have successfully used a Type H coaxial DC power plug from Radio Shack 274-1571, but the fit is not right. ID is indeed 1.3mm. Type H OD is 3.5mm which is a loose fit. The OD 4.0mm on a Radio Shack 274-1532 appears to be correct, but its ID 1.7mm is too loose.

Thanks for that info. There are three standard jacks with 1.3 mm ID, The ODs are 3.4, 3,5, and 3,8 mm. If the 3.5 mm one is loose, perhaps 3.8 x 1.3 mm is the correct size.

According to the manual, if there's an auxiliary battery connected, it switches over to that when the internal battery is depleted to 45% charge level. What's not clear is whether, after it shuts down at about 12% charge to leave some if you press the Emergency button, it won't go to the auxiliary battery if you connect one after that. It might wait to come back to life until it sees AC power again.

I was hoping that if it looked like we were going to have a long term power outage, I could simply disconnect the interhal battery until I wanted to use the phone, then either re-connect it or connect an external auxiliary battery. I suppose I should experiment to see if it'll restart if I disconnect the battery and then re-connect it with the AC power off. I suspect this might be a gotcha, and that if I wanted to use an auxiliary battery I'd need to connect it before it decided that the internal battery was dead.


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

On the APC BBU, the internal battery is started up when emergency use button is pressed. It's not clear what 45% or 12% mean in terms of battery voltage. In my tests, even a low internal battery would start up. I had to disconnect the internal battery to start up the external battery.


MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

said by birdfeedr:

On the APC BBU, the internal battery is started up when emergency use button is pressed. It's not clear what 45% or 12% mean in terms of battery voltage. In my tests, even a low internal battery would start up. I had to disconnect the internal battery to start up the external battery.

That's interesting, though apparently we have different units. I haven't tested mine yet, but I was under the impression, both from the manual and what the installer told me, that, just like a UPS, when the AC power went out, the internal battery took over seamlessly.

If there's no auxiliary battery, then it continues to run on the internal battery until it decides that it's down to what it thinks is 12% capacity. (it runs a self-test now and then to get an idea of the actual capacity) If there's an external battery connected, it switches to the external battery sooner, runs off that, and (I guess) switches back to the internal battery until it's down to 12%. The Emergency button uses the remaining 12% after it has shut down.

Clearly you can shut it down by disconnecting the internal battery, but what's not clear is whether, without AC power, you can re-connect the internal battery and have it take off again. I interpreted from the manual that once it quits, it won't come back until either you press the Emergency button or it sees AC power.

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to MikeRivers

Here's one more reason to love Your Phone Company.

I figured that since CyberPower built the battery backup unit, they'd know what the proper external power connector is. I contacted them via their on-line tech support and received a next-day response. Here's our exchange:

The query:

PRODUCT INFO:
----------------------------------
Model: CS36A12V2
----------------------------------
"This is the power backup unit provided by Verizon with FiOS service. The user manual describes the Auxiliary DC input connector as "1.3 mm" but that's only half of the specification. What is the outside diameter (there are at least three different ones with that ID) or standard part number for the plug?

Verizon has no clue. "

The reply:

"Unfortunately CyberPower product support does not have access to that information. I understand that your previous inquiries with Verizon were not fruitful, and I understand the position this puts you in. The unit you have is Verizon property and Verizon has requested that all inquiries be made with them directly."

Translation: "Sure, we know but in accordance with our arrangement with Verizon, we won't tell you."



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to MikeRivers

said by MikeRivers:

said by birdfeedr:

On the APC BBU, the internal battery is started up when emergency use button is pressed. It's not clear what 45% or 12% mean in terms of battery voltage. In my tests, even a low internal battery would start up. I had to disconnect the internal battery to start up the external battery.

If there's no auxiliary battery, then it continues to run on the internal battery until it decides that it's down to what it thinks is 12% capacity. (it runs a self-test now and then to get an idea of the actual capacity) If there's an external battery connected, it switches to the external battery sooner, runs off that, and (I guess) switches back to the internal battery until it's down to 12%. The Emergency button uses the remaining 12% after it has shut down.

Very, very interesting. I have two batteries, one is Aux, both connected. I guess my testing previously was flawed.

Two batteries connected, both charged, APC BBU.

Power failure, BBU runs off internal until Low Battery initiates shut down. I wasn't here when it did that, so all I know is when. Four hours of backup, then shutdown. Internal battery voltage after two hours rest was 11.9V. Hit emergency start, and it started running on internal. After a half hour running, the internal battery was at 11.45, so I know it was under load. I have a hookup that checks V and I of external battery. It was not under load.

So I figured, I'll just wait until depletion. Come back in an hour, and BBU is now running off the external battery, where it still is now.

So, currently, the answer is to have both batteries connected. When Emergency Use button is pressed, the BBU switches over from internal to external at some level to preserve the internal from certain death.

Currently, the internal rest voltage is 11.85, which will drop once it's under load. APC BBU and CyberPower BBU appear to be running identically.

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

Interesting. So It doesn't switch to the Aux battery until after the internal battery runs down to the point of shutdown. Then when you restart with the Emergency button, it continues to run from the internal battery for a while longer before switching to the auxiliary battery?

I don't doubt your test procedure or result, but that doesn't seem to make very good use of the external battery. I guess it doesn't really matter if you're around to push the button, but if the power goes out for a couple of days while you're on vacation for a week and you have an alarm system that depends on their being a phone. I assume that when AC power returns, it will restart automatically, but if not you might be without your alarm system longer than just the duration of the power outage.

I realize you have a different power unit than mine (APC vs Cyberpower) but I assume they're both built to the same design specifications and work the same way under power loss.

I don't have an alarm system myself, I just want to be able to make phone calls by candle light.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

said by MikeRivers:

Interesting. So It doesn't switch to the Aux battery until after the internal battery runs down to the point of shutdown. Then when you restart with the Emergency button, it continues to run from the internal battery for a while longer before switching to the auxiliary battery?

Confirmed in a test still running. Aux battery is 35AH. Internal battery has been stressed previously and BBU is wired to maintain all services during battery operation. Conditions explain 4.5 hours runtime until first shutdown, and 34 minutes of emergency runtime on internal battery.

Time     Aux       Internal
16.00    13.34     13.24      Initial before pulling AC power
16.06    13.34     12.64      
17.28    13.34     12.48      
19.23    13.32     12.06      last reading with OnBattery solid
20.26    13.31     11.76      OnBattery blinking indicates Low Battery but still running
20.39                         45% -- BBU shut down sometime in the last 13 minutes
 
20.39    13.31     11.72      Restart with Emergency Use button, runs from internal
20.44    13.31     11.66
20.48    13.31     11.64
20.58    13.31     11.55
21.02    13.31     11.49
21.07    13.31     11.35
21.11    13.31     10.96
21.13    13.31     10.60      12% -- In last minutes, internal battery voltage  
                              dropped rapidlybefore switching over to Aux. 
                              Transfer did not interrupt connectivity
 
21.13    13.07     11.70      Internal battery is no longer under load
06.17    12.32     11.92
 

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA

Good data. Thanks.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to MikeRivers

said by MikeRivers:

There are three standard jacks with 1.3 mm ID, The ODs are 3.4, 3,5, and 3,8 mm. If the 3.5 mm one is loose, perhaps 3.8 x 1.3 mm is the correct size.

After some research, I am unable to find a source for 3.8/1.3 except for links through alibaba. I'm not sure I can get small enough quantities directly. Although perhaps through a local manufacturer looking for small quantities for sample purposes. Hmmm.

Have you found a non-wholesale resource for 3.8/1.3?

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

said by birdfeedr:

Have you found a non-wholesale resource for 3.8/1.3?

There's no assurance that 3.8 mm is the right size either. But here's one from DigiKey:
»www.digikey.com/product-detail/e···/1289168

And here's 3.5 mm x 1.3 mm
»www.digikey.com/product-detail/e···D/992139

So, less than $10 would get one of each. It's probably worth a gamble if you're in the US.

Alibaba is one of those distributors that seems to have everything, but in large quantities. I guess I should really bite the bullet, call Verizon, and ask if they sell a cable with the connector. That's more likely than them having just the connector.


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:12

said by MikeRivers:

I guess I should really bite the bullet, call Verizon, and ask if they sell a cable with the connector. That's more likely than them having just the connector.

Why? You're not gonna get anything but a deer-in-the-headlights look from them...

Mouser also has the plugs, about $6 including shipping.

/M


tito79

join:2010-03-14
Brewster, NY
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to MikeRivers

Allied electronics or newark.com



tito79

join:2010-03-14
Brewster, NY
kudos:1
reply to MikeRivers

You are referring to like what alarm panels use the power supplies have 2 battery's if one dies out other would kick in so instead of 8 hrs u want 16 hrs


MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to mackey

said by mackey:

said by MikeRivers:

I guess I should really bite the bullet, call Verizon, and ask if they sell a cable with the connector. That's more likely than them having just the connector.

Why? You're not gonna get anything but a deer-in-the-headlights look from them...

But that's the fun part!


tito79

join:2010-03-14
Brewster, NY
kudos:1
reply to MikeRivers

If you know someone in the alarm security for home and business I'm sure they can hook you up with what you need



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to MikeRivers

said by MikeRivers:

There's no assurance that 3.8 mm is the right size either. But here's one from DigiKey:
»www.digikey.com/product-detail/e···/1289168

Thanks for the reference. I'll let you know if it fits when it comes in. I should have known better than to rely on the printed catalog.


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to MikeRivers

said by MikeRivers:

There's no assurance that 3.8 mm is the right size either. But here's one from DigiKey:
»www.digikey.com/product-detail/e···/1289168

I ordered this part specifically. It fits better than the RS Type H. As far as I'm concerned, this is the right size.

I will fabricate my new cord, plus two others as backup for my 92 y.o. friend and the other neighbor. 6 feet, 18 ga. with battery clips on the other end.

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to birdfeedr

said by birdfeedr:

said by MikeRivers:

Interesting. So It doesn't switch to the Aux battery until after the internal battery runs down to the point of shutdown. Then when you restart with the Emergency button, it continues to run from the internal battery for a while longer before switching to the auxiliary battery?

Confirmed in a test still running. Aux battery is 35AH. Internal battery has been stressed previously and BBU is wired to maintain all services during battery operation. Conditions explain 4.5 hours runtime until first shutdown, and 34 minutes of emergency runtime on internal battery.

I finally scored a Verizon tech support person who took the effort to figure out what I was talking about when I asked about the auxiliary power connector. This isn't relly relevant to this thread but it's a good enough story to relate anyway. After being stonewalled by a really nice guy at Cyberpower who told me that even if he had the info on the proper connector, he couldn't tell me because of their agreement with Verzion. So I called Verizon again, and sure enough, got not only a "deer in the headlights" agent, but one who would only tell me that she didn't know where within Verizon to go for the information.

So I called back another day, and this time I got an agent who,, while she didn't know about the auxiliary power connector, she took the effort to go to their in-house resources, found the model number for the power unit, went to the Cyberpower web site, and found the same manual that I was looking at. I told her where to look and she found the reference. She e-mailed an in-house tech support person who initially told her that there was no such connector, but she referred him to the same manual we were both looking at. Eventually, she did something I never expected (and which the first agent said she wasn't able to do) and transferred me to the in-house tech guy and we had a good chat. But ultimately, I still was up against a wall. He said that Verizon doesn't support or encourage the use of that auxiliary battery connector because they were afraid that customers would use an incorrect battery and damage the unit. And his bottom line was that since Verizon didn't support connection to an auxiliary battery, he couldn't research it for me. So I guess we're back to cut-and-try.

However, he did tell me something that I didn't know. I guess I assumed that this unit worked just like a UPS, with the battery replacing the AC line lump when power went out. Turns out that this isn't the way it works. When it's running on the battery, only the phone part of the system is powered. The part of the interface outside the house that provides the Internet connection (and TV if I had that) doesn't get powered, so even if I have the router on a UPS (which I do), it won't get the data stream when the power unit is running on battery. One more gotcha that I didn't learn about until after I switched to FiOS.

If you're still reading, can you confirm this - that there's no Internet when there's no AC? Heck, I guess I should just try it myself.

Their thought is that without power, you won't have computers or TV sets, so there's no need to power that part of the fiber interface, and they can get away with a smaller battery. Given that the battery only keeps the phone working, I'm less interested in extending that operation. I hardly make or receive any phone calls. But I'm inclined to connect the power unit to the UPS that runs the computer that's in the same room.

MikeRivers

join:2005-09-13
Falls Church, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

Well, so much for that smart guy. I just unplugged my power unit and the Internet didn't go away. Perhaps it does when it gets down to the reserve power (after you push the "emergency" button) but I figure that if it worked for 15 minutes, it'll work until the battery runs down.

I swear, sometimes I don't think the Verizon folks know when they're lying to us.


Shady Bimmer
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Northport, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

It has been discussed in these forums so some creative searching may yield results, but essentially there is a short window after switching to battery that all three services (Video/TV, Data/Internet, Voice/Phone) will continue to run. After that window (5 minutes IIRC) Internet and TV will shut down while phone will remain.



birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9
reply to MikeRivers

I thought that you, by referencing that [unspecified] other thread, are aware of this FAQ. I don't know how the CyberPower BBU is constructed, but this may be useful. And, yes, this is definitely not supported by Verizon. Which is why I put in the disclaimer at the end that I did.

The interval for keeping data and TV alive during battery operation depends on the ONT. Mine shuts off after 5 minutes, others have reported 15.

»Verizon Online FiOS FAQ »Can I keep data and TV service active during battery operation?