TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI | Roots in (secondary) sewer line. Worth fixing or band-aid? When I got my house's sewer inspected back in November, I learned my house had two separate sewer lines going from the house to the street. Once is the "main", which carries the load of all the toilets, showers, sinks, and everything else one would normally think of.
The other line carries the basement floor drains. It literally goes from the street, to the house, to the basement floor drains, as confirmed by a camera inspection I watched with my own two eyes. I'm told this is because the drains used to go to a dry well, but the original owners had problems with it so they had a new line installed just for these drains. Why they weren't connected to the existing sewer line is beyond me.
Anyways, this floor-drain only sewer line had a large bush planted 10' above it in a garden bed, and was allowed to get overgrown (at least 12-14' tall by the time I cut it down). Unfortunately it managed to reach the sewer line below it as confirmed by the previously stated sewer inspection. At the time they ran the auger through the roots and were able to complete the inspection (aka confirm the only things connected to this line are those drains) after flushing all the dirt out of the line and trap leading to the cleanout in the house. The roots have closed up the hole since then as I discovered when my water heater committed suicide a couple weeks ago.
Originally when this was discovered (and the previous owner balked at taking on the cost of power washing the line and having a liner installed) I decided it wasn't worth getting excited about - I'd get it taken care of eventually. But now that I only narrowly escaped having multiple feet of water flooding my basement by sheer dumb luck once, my interest has been renewed in getting this problem put to bed.
I've already killed the bush, so that takes out the root (heh!) of the problem. However the line is still clogged. The way I see it, I have three choices:
1. Spend ~$3500 on getting the line power washed, and a liner professionally installed. I already received a quote from the plumbers who performed the inspection just in case I wanted to go this route in the future, so I have a pretty good idea of what to expect in terms of cost/time with this.
2. Rent an auger from HD for $60 and break up the roots enough for water to get through, run a chemical "root killer" though the line and call it a day. Since the block is only 3-4 feet from the clean out in the basement it should be a pretty quick job.
3. Abandon the line all together and connect the floor drains to the main sewer line. Outside of needing to chop up a bunch of the floor in my basement to pull this off, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle since there are two stacks going to the main sewer 6-10' away from the drains already depending on the drain and stack you're looking at. While at it I'd also connect the basement laundry sink to the main sewer directly, rather than continue to use the drain lift pump which currently pumps the water from below the sink up into the ceiling, and back down a main sewer stack on the other side of the basement, which would eliminate another point of failure from my life.
IMHO, option 1 is overkill, since lets be fair we're talking about floor drains which I may or may not ever see used again. It would be one thing if this were the only option, but since it isn't it seems unnecessary.
Option 2 would work provided the bush stays dead. The only thing I'm worried about here is how well that pipe is holding together with the dead bushes' roots supporting it. Once the roots die out and rot, the pipe could collapse, and I might not find out about it until I return from vacation one day to discover my new indoor swimming pool.
Option 3 would be the best solution in theory, but I can't shake the feeling that there must have been some reason why this was never done in the first place. My leading theory is that the plumber took the poor old lady who lived here for a ride and convinced her they needed a whole new line run to the street just for these drains, despite the fact that the main sewer stacks (there are two) are within arms reach of both drains of the floor in the basement already. This line runs hundreds of feet from the house to the curb, so it wouldn't surprise me if it cost $15-20K to get the trench dug and the line placed, so I'd like to think there was a good reason for it. Then again, I'm no plumber.
So that's where I stand on the issue. I'm not sure which option I should choose, or if there is another option I'm not thinking of. Any input would be great because I'd like to have a plan of action to execute before the next appliance decides to shit on my head. |
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 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | Does the basement drain connect to the storm sewer or sanitary sewer? That may explain why two drains were used. Check with your city to see what current code is and if the basement drain can even be attached to the sanitary sewer.
Is this drain only for spills/leaks in your basement, or also for a perimeter drain/sump pump? If it's just for spills/leaks, do you even need a drain and can the drain be removed and sealed up?
Another option, which I have no idea what the cost would be, would be to just dig up where the roots are at and properly replace the pipe. It's more destructive to your landscaping, but I can't imagine that it would be as high as $3500. But as never pricing such a thing, maybe it is. |
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| reply to TheSMJ
We used to have this all the time.
First clog we spent 300 bux to have it unclogged.
Second time we rented a rooter.
Third time we bought a Rigid rooter at Home Depot and it has paid for itself at least a few times.
Several years ago we had the trees that were interfering removed so it is a rare occurrence for it to get clogged now.
Dave
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I may have been born yesterday. But it wasn't at night. |
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TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI | reply to cdru
The basement doesn't have a sump pump, so in the event of a water leak the only thing keeping me from a very flooded basement are these drains (if they worked).
It looked like a sanitary sewer to me, and the plumbers performing the inspection didn't seem to think anything was amiss when they inspected the line. It looked like it was running out to the manhole in the street, and that was before I had spoken to the previous owner and was clued in about the fact that this house has two sewer lines (really wish they told me that BEFORE the inspection). |
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TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI | reply to workablob
said by workablob:We used to have this all the time.
First clog we spent 300 bux to have it unclogged.
Second time we rented a rooter.
Third time we bought a Rigid rooter at Home Depot and it has paid for itself at least a few times.
Several years ago we had the trees that were interfering removed so it is a rare occurrence for it to get clogged now.
Dave
Since I killed the bush regrowth shouldn't be a problem for long. I'm more worried about what will happen to the damaged portion of the pipe after the roots die off.
As for digging down to the pipe, I'm 90% sure it's under my front porch, and even if it wasn't that would be an awfully cramped, dangerous 10-12' hole to the pipe given that the bed is surrounded by the porch on one side, the side of the house on another, and a paved walkway on the other two sides. I might be able to lift up and replace the portion of the walkway I'd need to in order to reach the pipe, but I might get down there only to discover it's under the porch slab and I dug up my front lawn for no good reason. |
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robbinPremium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1 | reply to TheSMJ
What is the line made of? |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to TheSMJ
said by TheSMJ:It looked like a sanitary sewer to me, and the plumbers performing the inspection didn't seem to think anything was amiss when they inspected the line. It looked like it was running out to the manhole in the street Nothing may look amiss, but from your house to the actual sewer main may not look any different if it's sanitary or sewer...the difference would be at where it connects to the sewer main whether it's a storm or sanitary main.
The city doesn't want to have to unnecessarily treat ground water runoff. Combined storm and sanitary sewers are an EPA no-no these days and many communities are in the expensive process of splitting them if they are combined to control water pollution and their waste water treatment costs. |
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TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI | reply to robbin
said by robbin:What is the line made of?
Cast iron for the first few feet off the basement cleanout, then it changes to PVC. The roots are in the PVC portion of the line.
said by cdru:Nothing may look amiss, but from your house to the actual sewer main may not look any different if it's sanitary or sewer...the difference would be at where it connects to the sewer main whether it's a storm or sanitary main.
The city doesn't want to have to unnecessarily treat ground water runoff. Combined storm and sanitary sewers are an EPA no-no these days and many communities are in the expensive process of splitting them if they are combined to control water pollution and their waste water treatment costs.
The line was installed sometime in the late-90's. I seriously doubt they'd have routed them into a storm drain "just because".
Come to think of it, I don't believe my neighborhood has underground storm drains. Instead they have drainage ditches. |
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 djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:1
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| reply to TheSMJ
I would probably do the auger / root kill treatment if you're fairly sure you've eliminated the growing roots.
I'd still re-treat with root kill every 6 months to be sure. My yard has big roots growing in every direction, even in spots that don't seem like there should be anything other than grass nearby. The source is anyone's guess. They love to find their way into our storm drain system. I want to smack whoever thought using loose-fit drainage piping was acceptable upside the head. Took me a whole summer to get it mostly clear.
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said by TheSMJ:Cast iron for the first few feet off the basement cleanout, then it changes to PVC. The roots are in the PVC portion of the line.
Wow. I would never expect roots in PVC. I wonder how the sections were joined. I can't imagine roots growing through a cemented coupling, nor through a quarter inch of plastic. Unless they pushed and bent the pipe until it snapped, which is also no small feat given the resiliency of the stuff. |
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| reply to TheSMJ
said by TheSMJ:Cast iron for the first few feet off the basement cleanout, then it changes to PVC. The roots are in the PVC portion of the line.
I'd dig it up just to take a look. Something is not right.
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TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI | Yeah, I might do that but first I'll need to make friends with a backhoe operator. |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8
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| reply to TheSMJ
I agree that it would be odd to see roots in PVC. Not impossible, but not common. Are you sure it isn't clay pipe?
I also think it's very odd that they would run a whole new lateral just for floor drains.
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 John GaltForward, MarchPremium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5 | reply to TheSMJ
The roots probably got in at the transition coupling. |
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You don't need to excavate the whole line -- just enough to have that section inspected. |
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TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI
1 edit | reply to nunya
said by nunya:I agree that it would be odd to see roots in PVC. Not impossible, but not common. Are you sure it isn't clay pipe?
I know for sure it's PVC ~10' out from the house and down to the street, and it looked like PVC where the roots were during the inspection. Without digging up the pipe I could only take an educated guess based on what I saw on video and what the original owner's daughter could tell me about the history of this pipe.
said by John Galt:The roots probably got in at the transition coupling.
That's what I'm thinking, since I know there is a transition from either cast iron or clay to PVC right around there.
said by aurgathor:You don't need to excavate the whole line -- just enough to have that section inspected.
I know. If the clog was in the middle of the yard I'd have just dug up the pipe and made the repair once the ground thawed. But since the clog is below a narrow garden bed (3'x8') right up next to the house and quite possibly below the front porch slab next to the garden bed, I'd have to first break up the concrete walkway going up to the porch just to make room for the hole, and once I dug down 10' I might find the pipe is broken up underneath the porch, which frankly I'm not touching unless I can safely dig underneath it without disturbing the slab above.
By hand and by myself, it would take days just digging down to the pipe. God help me if it started to rain at any point during this project. If anyone thinks it would help seeing photos of the area I'm talking about, let me know and I'll post some so you can all get an idea of what I'm dealing with.
EDIT:
I just thought of something: Since the pipe is broken and right next to the house, wouldn't the soil around the pipe get washed away over time making for a much larger, more expensive problem later on? |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
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| said by TheSMJ:I just thought of something: Since the pipe is broken and right next to the house, wouldn't the soil around the pipe get washed away over time making for a much larger, more expensive problem later on?
It might if the drain was constantly in use, like your primary sanitary drain. Good thing is just for basement floor drains that see little flow. |
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TheSMJ
join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI | The floor drains carry out condensate water from the A/C and humidifier, so they will almost always have a small amount of water moving through them. |
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 ropeguruPremium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA | reply to TheSMJ
I feel your pain. I have a septic tank and also a secondary system for grey water only in the basement for the washing machine. The secondary system runs from the house to a distribution box and then out to two drain lines.
Issue was that the pupmp would drain about half of what was in the sump and then not move anymore water. I just bought the house and had no clue of the layout. Had to hand dig along the line from the house to the box just to find it. Once I opened it, there appeared to be a mesh filter in the box which seemed odd. After further inspection, it was actually a mesh of tree roots. Pretty easy to clean out but the two lines leading away from the box would not drain.
Rented an auger from Home Depot and was only able to get it to cut up into one line about 25 feet and at this time it is still clogged. Didn't even notice the second line initially but after busting some larger roots in the first foot or so, got the auger in at least 50 feet with no issues. Run a water hose into the box wide open for about 30 minutes and the one line was still draining with no issues.
I am going to wait until things dry up this summer and have the clogged one fixed/replaced. I would like to use this system for a second bath in the basement and drain the shower and hand sink into it. From my understanding this is perfectly acceptable and the only thing I really have to plan for is the toilet. |
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| reply to TheSMJ
If I read your post correctly...I vote #3.
Reasoning:
The house line has slope that is less likely to back up / flood your house due to heavy rains or street blockages or similar. Basically the house is above ground and would flood else where before flooding the basement.
The low line from the street to the basement has a greater chance flooding your basement when there is a street blockage or heavy rains.
#3 will mean the addition of pump, but I think that would be cheap insurance vs. a sewage flood.
Just my 2 cents. |
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