dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
20
share rss forum feed


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to celeritypc

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

said by celeritypc:

said by FFH:

Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't? More court cases to collect?

She files bankruptcy and the judgement gets tossed. Granted, she will have the bankruptcy follow her for 7 years but will recover fairly quickly from it.

Bah, why even do that?
She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].
But bottom line is this:
Thanks to the RIAA and the court system, we now have a new welfare recipient on our hands.
If she fails to make the welfare rolls, she could get a low income job, that just covers her bills. They [the courts/RIAA] can not take anything away from her that she needs to live on. Meaning if she needs 30k a year to survive, then that should be the income level she seeks.
I have a friend that got divorced, he quit his 100k a year job, and went to McD's. She had already taken all the savings and other items, left him with just the shirt on his back and child support payments. By working McD's he was able to dodge child support, because it would have been a hardship for him based on his current income level. So he got away not paying child support.
Note: Now that the kids are over 18, and the ex is in a study relationship, he left McD's and returned to making a better income.

So I think that would work in this case as well.

--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

First, I dont believe this as the court would use 3-5 years of previous income or potential income (if they are under employing themselves) to decide this. Any competent lawyer would certainly take this approach.

Second, your friend is an idiot for "doing" that to his children. Child support is there to help give them adequate housing by both parents and is based on % of income and time child spends with the parent and other expenses (day care and medical coverage). Your friend, by being vindictive to his EX only hurts his children and I see why the woman left him.


Papageno

join:2011-01-26
Portland, OR
reply to Snakeoil

Your friend's a real prince. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face (or in this case, your ex). He could have made certain his kids were adequately provided for, made enough income to build up his retirement savings again etc. but no, it was more important to stick it to his ex.


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to Snakeoil

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States. You don't go to jail for debts owed to a private corporation or individual, even if you disregard judgments. The only debts you go to jail for are child/spousal support and taxes, and that's only in the event that you refuse to make a good faith effort to repay them.

Civil judgments are barely worth the paper they're printed on. There are so many creative and legal ways to get around them that they're almost worthless. OJ Simpson hasn't paid a dime of the civil judgment levied against him. Monies parked in retirement accounts are completely exempt, as is your home in many states, your pension, many 'heirloom' possessions (i.e., your wedding wing can't be taken to satisfy a judgment), firearms up to a certain value, social security income, disability/unemployment income, etc, etc, etc.

averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States. You don't go to jail for debts owed to a private corporation or individual, even if you disregard judgments. The only debts you go to jail for are child/spousal support and taxes, and that's only in the event that you refuse to make a good faith effort to repay them.

Civil judgments are barely worth the paper they're printed on. There are so many creative and legal ways to get around them that they're almost worthless. OJ Simpson hasn't paid a dime of the civil judgment levied against him. Monies parked in retirement accounts are completely exempt, as is your home in many states, your pension, many 'heirloom' possessions (i.e., your wedding wing can't be taken to satisfy a judgment), firearms up to a certain value, social security income, disability/unemployment income, etc, etc, etc.

That is a misconception about "debtors prison".
The judge will "order" the money to be paid.
When the person does not pay the money that person will be "held in contempt" (AKA Jailed) until such time as the money can be repaid. The problem is that being in jail makes it impossible to pay back the "ordered" debt thus furthering the "contempt" order thus more jail time - - - wash rinse repeat.

I am not going to list the cases as they can be googled.


chamberc
Premium
join:2008-08-05
Irving, TX
reply to Crookshanks

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States.

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.


Rambo76098

join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH

Oh yeah, take them from getting payments they have to apply for, to forcibly covering their housing, meals, etc.

More than willing to bet a year of welfare costs less than a year of jail.


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to averagedude

You're wrong, at least with regards to civil (e.g., non support/non taxes) debts.

The Judge can not "order" you to pay per say. They can garnish your wages. They can levy your bank account and take non-exempt monies. In the extreme example they can send the Sheriff/US Marshals to your house to seize non-exempt property and put it up for auction, though this almost never happens for civil debts. They can not simply order you to pay using whatever means are necessary, because much property and many monies (i.e., money received from disability, social security, retirement distributions) are exempt from seizure to satisfy judgments.

Please, link to a single case in the United States where somebody went to jail for an inability/unwillingness to pay a civil judgment. You can go to jail for lying about your assets or income. You can go to jail for lying on a debtors examination form. You do not go to jail/get held in contempt for an inability or even an unwillingness to pay.

RIAA will not see a dime of this money, irrespective of whether or not the woman files for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy may not even wipe away the judgment, depending on how hard RIAA fights it, but even if she is stuck with the judgment they will have a very hard time enforcing it. Move to a state where payroll garnishments aren't legal (Texas is one such state), live without a bank account, and don't own any non-exempt property. Park any money you wish to invest into a IRA or other exempt asset. Purchase a house and keep less equity in it than your state's homestead exemption. Don't own a car that's worth more than your state's automobile exemption. There are limitless legal ways to dodge a civil judgment, and for that matter a lot of illegal/spiteful ways (purposefully damaging your property to lower its value) to do the same that are very hard to prove.

Of course, the point here wasn't to collect money. It was to generate a big scary headline that deters people from pirating media. Whether or not this headline was worth the legal fees they paid is open to debate, but they did accomplish their goal of obtaining said headline.


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to chamberc

said by chamberc:

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

Bankruptcy as a legal procedure goes all the way back to the beginning of the Republic. It encourages entrepreneurs to take risks, because the worst case scenario from failure is a black mark on your credit report for ten years. It allows for an out from unpredictable life events (uninsured medical expenses) that would otherwise destroy your life.

Saying we should throw people in jail for not paying their bills is absurd.

averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to chamberc

said by chamberc:

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States.

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

How would "throw(ing) people in jail for being on welfare for too long" fix any problem?
It would seem to me welfare is alot cheaper than jail when the tax payer footing the bill?
Putting a non-violent and non-criminal in jail for a debt only hurts taxpayers.
With your idea, we the tax payers would be paying (most likely "private" jails AKA big company's) for housing, food, and medical care VS. money spent on local private housing, local grocery stores for food, and local doctors for medical needs.
Only big business wins if everyone is jailed.

There are many issues on why people are on welfare for extended times. For example, you would be for throwing US Military Veterans in jail because they had the misfortune to have traumatic brain injuries or have had their limbs blown off and will need welfare for the rest of their lives? Yea, its a little more complicated than just 144 characters.

averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

1 edit
reply to Crookshanks

said by Crookshanks:

You're wrong, at least with regards to civil (e.g., non support/non taxes) debts.

...

Please, link to a single case in the United States where somebody went to jail for an inability/unwillingness to pay a civil judgment. You can go to jail for lying about your assets or income. You can go to jail for lying on a debtors examination form. You do not go to jail/get held in contempt for an inability or even an unwillingness to pay.

...

First hit on google search and there are plenty more with better stories:
»business.time.com/2012/08/28/len···l-debts/
Know in the industry as "body attachments".

We could split hairs all day long but it really comes down to sleazy the RIAA wants to get on its "collection" and how much of a point they want to make.

But the RIAA needs to watch out, if they get too sleazy, then there might be some backlash that might undo the point they are trying to make.


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Being arrested for failure to appear is not the same thing as being arrested for failing to pay a judgment you can't afford. Nice try though.


averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

As I am not a lawyer, I think my point was made in my previous posts as clear as I could.

IMO The court system is being used to "make a point" when it is not the courts job to do so. The failure of the supreme court to review this was the last check to add some reasonableness to this "dated" court case.

RIAA and MPAA have virtually unlimited supplies of money compared to a single individual. Their lawyers can and most likely will destroy this lady just because they can. Oh there may not be a "debtors prison" in name, but I truly believe that the RIAA lawyers can manipulate the law similar to the like I posted earlier. They will destroy her while all the time keeping their hands clean.

This is not some big company suing another big company.
This is a big company against one single individual with out the resources to properly defend herself in perpetuity.

I ask out loud to all: How many pounds of flesh will it take to satisfy the RIAA and MPAA?
As was stated in the first court case 1.92 MILLION dollars worth.
I don't know about your finical means, but $222,000 is an equivalent to a house loan that would take 30 years to pay off.

I truly believe that the RIAA and MPAA will not let this go until the
lady is in jail or dead by suicide.

Yes companies have rights to protect their products, but sending out extortion letters and then going nuclear on an individual is not the right way to go about it - Total loss of credibility.


Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

They can only destroy you if you let them. File bankruptcy. More likely than not the debt will be discharged. If it is not there are plenty of perfectly legal ways to dodge a judgement indefinitely. Ask OJ Simpson. Ask Bernhard Goetz. Neither one of them even lost their standard of living, all the while refusing to pay a penny towards the millions of dollars in judgments against them.

I've gone through the legal system with my freedom at stake before, after being charged with a felony I did not commit. Not to belittle what she is going through but there are far worse things in life than having to file bankruptcy and/or make yourself judgment proof.


Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to chamberc

said by chamberc:

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States.

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

how would this solve anything?

Also if you want to throw people in jail over debt, we jail all of wall street. they traded and sold debt like it was pork futures and crashed the economy and what did they get? a bailout and the ability to still pull the strings on their golden parachutes.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8

1 recommendation

reply to Papageno

said by Papageno:

Your friend's a real prince. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face (or in this case, your ex). He could have made certain his kids were adequately provided for, made enough income to build up his retirement savings again etc. but no, it was more important to stick it to his ex.

Why are you guys (or girls) assuming the kids suffered as a result of this? from what it sounds like the wife got quite a bit of savings so more than enough to take care of the kids for a few years. Having been through a nasty divorce myself I can sympathize - the courts are biased towards women and they literally get everything - in my case we were married 5 years with only me working while she went to school (when she didn't sit on her ass playing video games), yet in the divorce she got all the savings *I* worked for and left me with nothing. No kids, no logical reason why she should get a single cent, no justice.


RRedline
Rated R
Premium
join:2002-05-15
Attleboro, MA

2 recommendations

reply to Papageno

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the children suffered in this case. The family court systems are so farked up in this country that it very often leaves the noncustodial parent (usually the man) unable to support him/herself financially, even though the other parent can choose to live off the other one's income alone (in addition to their new partner's income). The formulas and logic behind child support are a broken mess, and lawmakers are afraid to touch it out of fear that they will be seen as not "thinking about the children."

I have seen it myself many times. A man works full-time and easily supports his family. He gets divorced and loses custody of the kids and is forced to pay a ridiculous amount in child support. He can't even afford to live on his own and has to move in with his parents, while the ex lives comfortably on his child support payments in addition to her own income and her new boyfriend's income. Oh, and to top it all off, she gets to claim the children on her income tax return resulting in thousands of dollars in reduced income tax. If the formulas used to calculate child support ensure that both parents pay a fair share, then why doesn't the noncustodial parent get to claim children as dependents on his or her income tax return?

I could go on and on, but it just pisses me off thinking about it. I don't even have kids and have never gone through it, but family courts ruin people's lives everyday, including the children's in many cases.
--
One nation, under Zod!



tc1uscg

join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI

1 recommendation

For a minute, I thought you were talking about how men are treated in Michigan but it appears to be a nationwide issue. Everything you said is so true. There are men who are scumbags and don't deserve the title as father much less dad, but there many many more who try to do the right thing only to have it used against us when we go into court for a child support review or reduction. They don't care that the other kids are in college and their support/tuition is funded by dad and step-mom. They don't care that all medical is provided by dad. They don't care that dad has paid for both of their cars, insurance and up keep. And they don't care that while doing so, dad will go without or live in a cardboard box to ensure his kids don't have to go without. Mom on the other hand will play the pity card as much as she can and the courts will continue to play along.



Dont Matter

@charter.com

Yea, Fellow Michigander here. Wayne County no less of course. Left an awesome career as a Semi-Automated Hydro-Electric Vehicle Maintenance Technician meaning a car wash btw lol for more money working for one of the oldest best known by name piano moving companies. Moving 1800s upright player pianos down and up hills into an unfinished home for too many living well by ripping others off I mean republicans lol. Next winter called back out during the divorce to take it back out since our owner gave out full lifetime money back repurchases to our Christian customers. was making at times almost 180.00 a week and one week we were swamped with deliveries purchasing used and having two stores the second not one delivery in 8 yrs sorta told me to burn it down long ago but so happy on Friday getting the biggest paycheck I'd ever received when the higher mgr asked me to come outside for a minute with him. The handed me my check. $75.00. FOTCUNT contacted my boss and basically scared him into giving them everything i made over 75.00 and I wasn't a deadbeat dad. in fact i rarely could see my son was shocked as hell last time I'd seen him we were out playing putt putt golf on his 13th bday all he wanted and at 17 his crack-whore egg-layer he called mom wouldn't let him use his car we bought and gave him to get to school and graduate since in Mich at least Wayne county the court continues taking my wages as long as hes enrolled in school up until he is 19 1/2 and he called us begging for help. she was dealing drugs even her mom was into it not saying I'm an angel but he never once received his bday Christmas or any gifts or money nothing since the email Addy's she was giving me i was sending them through were just ones she made up for herself he knew nothing of them. He thought I was the bad guy. Also I had no clue even who or what that 6'4+ 300lb+ dude was or why he just almost ripped my door outta the frame. The only one thing since she knew me and I never make or take a threat and always regardless keep my word but in this case she did what I told her and never told me who his father really is. Know one of two but not adding more problems on as he stayed with my parents for a yr while attending school. Dad got him a sweet Ford Explorer. Popo called him said pick it up at the impound. Boy let two friends use it to purchase couple lbs bud with it and they were only 16. We just sorta arrived and left with it they weren't interested in stopping us. The magic of a Smith n Wesson 500 lol. Dad looking around asked whats this battery doing in the back by the hatch. 6 Cell sealed. told him to go find the radio for me
he couldn't. so cracked the code and a 10K system had been installed in that truck. showed him the mega cable under the hood and secondary alternator even being 190 amps i believe. son showed up at my house in the truck asked him if he remembered my Smokey Joe grill said no forgot bring it next day or two. next day the SUV was in Dads driveway he was left a msg once dad did some looking around and making calls. He hasn't and knowing us as he and his mother do won't return to Mich ever. just to make it clear when learning she and her hubby ex hubby ex again were going up wayyy up into Canadia where Canadians live lol to the Indian resort they were before i learned of how this was ending oddly enough heading up on that what 401 or Death Alley while he was driving sorta lost his head when a 35 ft cabin cruiser somehow hmm and its trailer dc'd and damn chains broke too so sorta slid over the hood and down off the trunk back on the road. Sorta made a mess in the middle too tho. Well fuck it. I only have one rule and its the same for all of us here. Actually there are 3 but made em all the same cause sometimes only way to fix Stoopid is to go Boating!!! so DO NOT FUCK WITH ME OR MINE AND THAT INCLUDES MY FRIENDS. Thats simple I think. Brightest Blessings!!! Peace all .

Expand your moderator at work


Havta kill

@charter.com
reply to Crookshanks

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

In the US of A your SSD and such are untouchable and judgement proof. Unless it is for Child Support the IRS and seems one more unsure tho. Oh a US Judgement ordered against you so what like a Grand Jury trial. only owes ya for a teener bro cmon mannn. rofl..

Expand your moderator at work


She be ok

@charter.com
reply to Rambo76098

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

Not playin on that bet but the problem is, it shouldn't. The prison jail system well in some places and ways really good serving a purpose that ummm wouldn't be possible otherwise. Referring to prison in always thinking Nevada but out there in the desert where y'know certain kinds of people are sent cause well for example there are just some things a 1 yr old can't stop another from doing to them.

Outside of that most lifer wardens are running their own country inside those walls. Most running even the line of business that the inmates are incarcerated for in the first place but they are special cause they know all the system. If most had even a clue of it. Probably be mass suicides worldwide. So try and remember to make a if even small point of noticing something good to another. Probably even help ya temporarily forget half the world finds literally a couple of newborns in garbage cans daily since in some countries they are breeders but as our past for boys but not thinking back then if was a girl meant throwaway. last two i heard of one was still alive that evening so probably OK. the other DOA so probably shes in better hands than the other one. Well all I'm off. As if that isn't obvious huh lmao. Gonna go to the bay and d/l both cds of Garage Band Inc. make second copy mail it to Mr. Dickhead lol



tc1uscg

join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
reply to Dont Matter

If you live in the area, what stops you from seeing him? Even if she has legal physical custody, you still have a say in his life and not sure about Wayne County but in Macomb, there are 16th circuit court parental time rules. If she's not letting you see your son, you don't need a lawyer, you need to take her to court. All that matters is, your son will see you trying to be a dad and how mother is trying to keep him apart from you. In the end, how you look in his eyes is all that should matter. You don't need to prove yourself to anyone else.