 BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | reply to buzz_4_20
Re: From the Sounds of it. said by buzz_4_20:They really want to ban/charge for those used games. How dare something be yours after you pay for it. You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope. MS can disable used games if they want. It's dumb and shortsighted but legally there is nothing wrong with that.
Always on internet connection, for what?
Tracking us with the required Kinect?
Advertizing?
Making sure that only paying members are watching Netflix?
Probably.
How do you watch Netflix WITHOUT a internet connection anyway?
Forced game installs?
Does this come with the option to install whatever Hard Drive you can. |
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| There's a difference between not fixing a ford and having a ford kill switch that disables the car should you try to resell. THAT is illegal. |
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WHT
join:2010-03-26
Decatur, TX
kudos:5 | reply to BF69
said by BF69:You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope.
I don't think that is a fair analogy. Ford may not have an obligation to fix an out-of-warranty product, but they certainly don't have the right to prohibit you from seeking repairs elsewhere. |
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BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | reply to Metatron2008
said by Metatron2008:There's a difference between not fixing a ford and having a ford kill switch that disables the car should you try to resell. THAT is illegal.
If it was illegal they wouldn't even attempt it. Show me where it says that someone buying something used like a game or a DVD or CD or whatever has the same rights as someone who bought something new. Using that logic they should be paying full price then.
By the way if I buy an old Ford that requires leaded gasoline which by the way is no longer sold in the US guess what, Ford doesn't have to convert my car to use unleaded gas. |
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BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | reply to WHT
said by WHT:said by BF69:You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope.
I don't think that is a fair analogy. Ford may not have an obligation to fix an out-of-warranty product, but they certainly don't have the right to prohibit you from seeking repairs elsewhere. Can you play a XBOX game on any gaming machine like you can drive Ford on ANY road? Nope. An XBOX game will only work on a XBOX. It is 100% legal for MS to make their games only work on their machine. Then it seems logical they can also PREVENT games from working on their machine too. As I said it's a STUPID thing to do. New Coke was stupid idea too, but didn't stop Coke from going ahead with it. |
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You are still using bullshit analogies. YOU can convert your own car. Again, if Ford did like the software companies they would simply disable the car so you cannot even use it should someone try to sell it to you. |
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b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
 ·Comcast Formerl..
1 edit | reply to BF69
said by BF69:You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope. That's a piss poor analogy because any Ford dealer will do maintenance on and repair (as long as there are still parts available) any Ford. That's just good business.
If I buy a book and give it to you after I read it. Should you be legally obligated to pay the author/publisher full price for that book?
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Bellingham Scanner Kicks Ass! »bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/ |
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BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | said by b10010011:said by BF69:You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope. That's a piss poor analogy because any Ford dealer will do maintenance on and repair (as long as there are still parts available) any Ford. That's just good business. yes they'll fix it an you have to PAY for it. So you can play your used game on your XBOX as long as you pay for the extra code. Once again I'm not an advocate of this idea. I'm merely stating it's not ILLEGAL as some have claimed, that's all.
If I buy a book and give it to you after I read it. Should you be legally obligated to pay the author/publisher full price for that book? |
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This is not a "new" versus "used" argument; this issue is about buying a product period. It's about buying a product (DVD) that is being disabled. |
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| reply to WHT
Perhaps if you realized the Ford is a vehicle you own. If you lease it, then it *is* different policy; you are renting.
EULA: End-User License Agreenemt apply to the videogames you play. You don't OWN the content, you are buying the right to use/play.
Read the EULA of every game... you don't own it. Once you open the package or box or wrap, you agree.
How long is the retention of your games?
Do you rent? or Buy? Do you resell (ebay other) or trade in?
Do you think its fair to sell you a game, with DLC that gets unlocked from the disc? What if there is no disc? And now, those maps and skins and add-ons are now DLC and extra. Is that fair?
Or not?
I don't know anyone that plays games offline. Unless their net is down. I do know I like games that are singleplayer. Is that the same?
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Splat |
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| Thats the reason I dont buy these things anymore. If I am just renting something...then it should be clearly mentioned. That $60 I just paid for is rent...not purchase.
Plus...if the software industry wants to go that model...why not do it properly. eg....New...HALO 6....just @ $2 per month....& all problem is solved. No need for resale etc. I play 1 month...or 6 month..or 60 month....they get the money each month.
Or make it cheaper. Eg....COD10...$19.99....& mention the restriction on the top...that cant be re-selled.
OR something like among these lines. |
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KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | reply to cableties
online games have no purpose other than multiplayer. if you want to play say the storyline mode of a game it really has no need to demand a connection unless playing co-op.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | reply to cableties
said by cableties:I don't know anyone that plays games offline. I do. Of course I don't like people. |
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| reply to BF69
said by BF69:Show me where it says that someone buying something used like a game or a DVD or CD or whatever has the same rights as someone who bought something new.
It's called the first-sale doctrine, and it's part of copyright law: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_sale_doctrine |
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 tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI | reply to BF69
said by BF69:said by buzz_4_20:They really want to ban/charge for those used games. How dare something be yours after you pay for it. You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope. MS can disable used games if they want. It's dumb and shortsighted but legally there is nothing wrong with that. Ford, GM, Chrysler all tried this in the 70's and 80's. It's been over 30 years and they still have not fully recovered from the defections of people who went to Honda, Toyota, VW, etc., for a product that lasted, from owner to owner. Look at all the brands that have been axed because of no one wanted to buy a car that is built to die at 50k miles. If MS wants to re-invent that business model, then more power too'em and good luck. I sure as heck won't be buying into it.  |
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jp10558Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY | reply to Rajmarie
This is why I bought Cities XL Platinum rather than SimCity. I still don't love the limited (5) activations, but you can per their license install it on up to 5 computers, once activated you can play offline etc. It's also $30 rather than $60 so I don't get as much...
I actually prefer non DRMed indie games now or console games where I know it's limited. That said, I don't own nor intend to own an xBox. I am more inclined to buy a PS4 due to used games being OK.
Most of my recent game purchases have been Humble Bundle.
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Opera 11.1; Windows XP Pro SP3;Intel C2Q6600; 3GB DDR2 1066; 1M/128k DSL; Comodo Internet Security 5.3;Proxomitron 4.5j Sidki 2009-06-06,GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3 |
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Sorry,
I mean the Kinect will do a head count and compare it to the number of paying live users on the system. |
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Sorry man, but even the Supreme Court has said that you have a right to resell your games and the only way you can sell your games is if you are able to find a buyer. IF, they remove all buyers from the market, then they have in essence removed your right to first sale doctrine. Your car analogy is just silly.
Even in the EU, which I expect to eventually come to the US, you have the right to resell your digital copies. So with a system like Steam, there should be a way to transfer the ownership rights to another user.
What I suspect is that ALL games will have an activation fee associated with them and the activation for the first buyer just happens to be a part of the original sale/price and paid separately by anyone buying the copy after that. Charging X for new and then Y for used activation however I think would cause a problem as they are clearly segmenting the 2.
I personally don't see a problem with what I mention above, but the used game market will have to adjust their prices accordingly. What wouldn't surprise me at all, by the greed of the industry, is if they started giving away the games (digital download, $10 for DVD shipment), but then charged $60 to activate it new or used. That would KILL the used game industry. |
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| reply to cableties
said by cableties:EULA: End-User License Agreenemt apply to the videogames you play. You don't OWN the content, you are buying the right to use/play. Read the EULA of every game... you don't own it. Once you open the package or box or wrap, you agree.
Try again: As per a federal court ruling against Adobe/Microsoft brought on via class action, "shrink-wrapped EULAs" are null, void, and un-enforceable. This ruling came about because people who bought OEM PCs believed they had the legal right to sell off the pre-installed bloatware they would never use that always came back whenever they re-installed Windows from their restore CDs. Microsoft and Adobe tried to block these sales using the same argument: they don't own the software; just the license, and the EULAs expressly forbid it. They lost their hides as the court ruled that "shrink-wrapped" EULAs are null and void because they're trying to function as amendment to an already closed and finalized sales transaction.
The precedent set by that case means the video gaming industry and all its legal-beagles are lying when they use the "you only own the license" crutch. They know they'd lose their collective asses if their notions were ever legally challenged, yet they take solace in the fact that challenging them is expensive - Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony are prepared to use the "bury them in paper" tactic to drag out such a challenge for years, consequently bankrupting any party that so desires to challenge them.
Doesn't change the fact that -- from the Magnavox Odyssey to today -- has always involved relying on snazy box art, logos, and full page ads in magazines and TV pumping and shilling both the console(s) and the game(s) -- NOT THE PAPER LICENSE(S) -- and people in every day conversations say "I bought Mortal Kombat 9" instead of saying "I bought a license to use/play Mortal Kombat 9." Their entire logic flies in the face of the sole justification for purchasing consoles: to foreclose on and liberate one's self (and their wallets) from the old and tired feed-the-machine subscription-based business models of the quarter-muncher.
The divorce from that business model has been very brief - from the PS1 to the PS2. The moment consoles acquired an Ethernet port and morphed into over-glorified STBs, it was the beginning of the end: video game companies in their greed and lust for control were gonna go right back to the subscription-based business models of the arcades only this time, they'd be munching tens and hundreds of dollars instead of quarters, and requiring them to constantly phone home to the mothership. As opposed to Plug-N-Play. Planned obsolescence and killing off the pre-owned software is integral to this business model since they have a vested interested in foisting ported "HD Collections/Compilations" down your gullet in lieu of backward compatibility.
In that regard, I dare them to kill off used-gaming. 
The industry could use another bubble-popping crash to burn off the leeches, and bring it back to the plug-and-play basics -- smacking every fugly branch of attitude adjustment on the way down.  |
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to BF69
said by BF69:You can buy a used Ford from a neighbor. Does The local Ford dealer have an obligation to fix your car if your neighbor sold you a lemon? Nope. MS can disable used games if they want. It's dumb and shortsighted but legally there is nothing wrong with that. Analogy fail. It would be akin to Ford making all vehicles no longer owned by the original buyer inoperable by having all vehicles constantly linked into a central computer which tracks ownership and usage and "authorizes" the vehicle to run. A "used" vehicle would be blocked from running and be required to be shredded whole. Used vehicles, used parts, all would be illegal, as would circumventing the tracking and logging system, that would also be a crime. That would be a proper analogy.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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