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Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States. You don't go to jail for debts owed to a private corporation or individual, even if you disregard judgments. The only debts you go to jail for are child/spousal support and taxes, and that's only in the event that you refuse to make a good faith effort to repay them.

Civil judgments are barely worth the paper they're printed on. There are so many creative and legal ways to get around them that they're almost worthless. OJ Simpson hasn't paid a dime of the civil judgment levied against him. Monies parked in retirement accounts are completely exempt, as is your home in many states, your pension, many 'heirloom' possessions (i.e., your wedding wing can't be taken to satisfy a judgment), firearms up to a certain value, social security income, disability/unemployment income, etc, etc, etc.
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States. You don't go to jail for debts owed to a private corporation or individual, even if you disregard judgments. The only debts you go to jail for are child/spousal support and taxes, and that's only in the event that you refuse to make a good faith effort to repay them.

Civil judgments are barely worth the paper they're printed on. There are so many creative and legal ways to get around them that they're almost worthless. OJ Simpson hasn't paid a dime of the civil judgment levied against him. Monies parked in retirement accounts are completely exempt, as is your home in many states, your pension, many 'heirloom' possessions (i.e., your wedding wing can't be taken to satisfy a judgment), firearms up to a certain value, social security income, disability/unemployment income, etc, etc, etc.

That is a misconception about "debtors prison".
The judge will "order" the money to be paid.
When the person does not pay the money that person will be "held in contempt" (AKA Jailed) until such time as the money can be repaid. The problem is that being in jail makes it impossible to pay back the "ordered" debt thus furthering the "contempt" order thus more jail time - - - wash rinse repeat.

I am not going to list the cases as they can be googled.
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

You're wrong, at least with regards to civil (e.g., non support/non taxes) debts.

The Judge can not "order" you to pay per say. They can garnish your wages. They can levy your bank account and take non-exempt monies. In the extreme example they can send the Sheriff/US Marshals to your house to seize non-exempt property and put it up for auction, though this almost never happens for civil debts. They can not simply order you to pay using whatever means are necessary, because much property and many monies (i.e., money received from disability, social security, retirement distributions) are exempt from seizure to satisfy judgments.

Please, link to a single case in the United States where somebody went to jail for an inability/unwillingness to pay a civil judgment. You can go to jail for lying about your assets or income. You can go to jail for lying on a debtors examination form. You do not go to jail/get held in contempt for an inability or even an unwillingness to pay.

RIAA will not see a dime of this money, irrespective of whether or not the woman files for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy may not even wipe away the judgment, depending on how hard RIAA fights it, but even if she is stuck with the judgment they will have a very hard time enforcing it. Move to a state where payroll garnishments aren't legal (Texas is one such state), live without a bank account, and don't own any non-exempt property. Park any money you wish to invest into a IRA or other exempt asset. Purchase a house and keep less equity in it than your state's homestead exemption. Don't own a car that's worth more than your state's automobile exemption. There are limitless legal ways to dodge a civil judgment, and for that matter a lot of illegal/spiteful ways (purposefully damaging your property to lower its value) to do the same that are very hard to prove.

Of course, the point here wasn't to collect money. It was to generate a big scary headline that deters people from pirating media. Whether or not this headline was worth the legal fees they paid is open to debate, but they did accomplish their goal of obtaining said headline.
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

1 edit

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

said by Crookshanks:

You're wrong, at least with regards to civil (e.g., non support/non taxes) debts.

...

Please, link to a single case in the United States where somebody went to jail for an inability/unwillingness to pay a civil judgment. You can go to jail for lying about your assets or income. You can go to jail for lying on a debtors examination form. You do not go to jail/get held in contempt for an inability or even an unwillingness to pay.

...

First hit on google search and there are plenty more with better stories:
»business.time.com/2012/08/28/len···l-debts/
Know in the industry as "body attachments".

We could split hairs all day long but it really comes down to sleazy the RIAA wants to get on its "collection" and how much of a point they want to make.

But the RIAA needs to watch out, if they get too sleazy, then there might be some backlash that might undo the point they are trying to make.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

Being arrested for failure to appear is not the same thing as being arrested for failing to pay a judgment you can't afford. Nice try though.
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

As I am not a lawyer, I think my point was made in my previous posts as clear as I could.

IMO The court system is being used to "make a point" when it is not the courts job to do so. The failure of the supreme court to review this was the last check to add some reasonableness to this "dated" court case.

RIAA and MPAA have virtually unlimited supplies of money compared to a single individual. Their lawyers can and most likely will destroy this lady just because they can. Oh there may not be a "debtors prison" in name, but I truly believe that the RIAA lawyers can manipulate the law similar to the like I posted earlier. They will destroy her while all the time keeping their hands clean.

This is not some big company suing another big company.
This is a big company against one single individual with out the resources to properly defend herself in perpetuity.

I ask out loud to all: How many pounds of flesh will it take to satisfy the RIAA and MPAA?
As was stated in the first court case 1.92 MILLION dollars worth.
I don't know about your finical means, but $222,000 is an equivalent to a house loan that would take 30 years to pay off.

I truly believe that the RIAA and MPAA will not let this go until the
lady is in jail or dead by suicide.

Yes companies have rights to protect their products, but sending out extortion letters and then going nuclear on an individual is not the right way to go about it - Total loss of credibility.
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

They can only destroy you if you let them. File bankruptcy. More likely than not the debt will be discharged. If it is not there are plenty of perfectly legal ways to dodge a judgement indefinitely. Ask OJ Simpson. Ask Bernhard Goetz. Neither one of them even lost their standard of living, all the while refusing to pay a penny towards the millions of dollars in judgments against them.

I've gone through the legal system with my freedom at stake before, after being charged with a felony I did not commit. Not to belittle what she is going through but there are far worse things in life than having to file bankruptcy and/or make yourself judgment proof.
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Havta kill

@charter.com

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

In the US of A your SSD and such are untouchable and judgement proof. Unless it is for Child Support the IRS and seems one more unsure tho. Oh a US Judgement ordered against you so what like a Grand Jury trial. only owes ya for a teener bro cmon mannn. rofl..
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chamberc
Premium
join:2008-08-05
Irving, TX
said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States.

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

Rambo76098

join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

Oh yeah, take them from getting payments they have to apply for, to forcibly covering their housing, meals, etc.

More than willing to bet a year of welfare costs less than a year of jail.

She be ok

@charter.com

Re: Can she pay $222,000? And what if she can't?

Not playin on that bet but the problem is, it shouldn't. The prison jail system well in some places and ways really good serving a purpose that ummm wouldn't be possible otherwise. Referring to prison in always thinking Nevada but out there in the desert where y'know certain kinds of people are sent cause well for example there are just some things a 1 yr old can't stop another from doing to them.

Outside of that most lifer wardens are running their own country inside those walls. Most running even the line of business that the inmates are incarcerated for in the first place but they are special cause they know all the system. If most had even a clue of it. Probably be mass suicides worldwide. So try and remember to make a if even small point of noticing something good to another. Probably even help ya temporarily forget half the world finds literally a couple of newborns in garbage cans daily since in some countries they are breeders but as our past for boys but not thinking back then if was a girl meant throwaway. last two i heard of one was still alive that evening so probably OK. the other DOA so probably shes in better hands than the other one. Well all I'm off. As if that isn't obvious huh lmao. Gonna go to the bay and d/l both cds of Garage Band Inc. make second copy mail it to Mr. Dickhead lol
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
said by chamberc:

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

Bankruptcy as a legal procedure goes all the way back to the beginning of the Republic. It encourages entrepreneurs to take risks, because the worst case scenario from failure is a black mark on your credit report for ten years. It allows for an out from unpredictable life events (uninsured medical expenses) that would otherwise destroy your life.

Saying we should throw people in jail for not paying their bills is absurd.
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by chamberc:

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States.

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

How would "throw(ing) people in jail for being on welfare for too long" fix any problem?
It would seem to me welfare is alot cheaper than jail when the tax payer footing the bill?
Putting a non-violent and non-criminal in jail for a debt only hurts taxpayers.
With your idea, we the tax payers would be paying (most likely "private" jails AKA big company's) for housing, food, and medical care VS. money spent on local private housing, local grocery stores for food, and local doctors for medical needs.
Only big business wins if everyone is jailed.

There are many issues on why people are on welfare for extended times. For example, you would be for throwing US Military Veterans in jail because they had the misfortune to have traumatic brain injuries or have had their limbs blown off and will need welfare for the rest of their lives? Yea, its a little more complicated than just 144 characters.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
said by chamberc:

said by Crookshanks:

said by Snakeoil:

She can refuse to pay it, do her jail time for refusing a court order [I think she'd get jail time for refusing to pay].

We don't have debtor's prisons in the United States.

Sad but true. It would fix a lot of problems if we could throw people in jail for being on welfare for too long, or for failure to pay bills.

how would this solve anything?

Also if you want to throw people in jail over debt, we jail all of wall street. they traded and sold debt like it was pork futures and crashed the economy and what did they get? a bailout and the ability to still pull the strings on their golden parachutes.
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