dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2212
share rss forum feed

BriEE

join:2010-08-29

Start.ca - won't offer FTTH (Home)?

I currently have 50/50 Bell FIBE, which the fiber actually goes into my home, into a fiber optic/ethernet switching device, which then goes into the sagecom modem and then to my Zeroshell router/network.

Anyhow, I called start.ca today and they said my area/home is not able to get any DSL at all. I was on the phone for a while with the rep, and I'm not sure if she knew she was talking about, but she kept saying that start only gets FTTN(node) which means copper only into the home. Where as I get fiber into my home.

Can someone from start.ca confirm this which means i'm out of luck getting the 50/10 package from you guys?


yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

Incumbents are not required to open up their FTTH infrastructure to TPIAs. So no, TPIAs like start cannot offer services over Bell's FTTH last mile, like they can with the copper last mile.



rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23

1 edit
reply to BriEE

The agent is correct, ie the FTTN (fiber to the node) service is up to 50/10 and delivered over copper to the house (ie fiber to the node, copper from the node to your house). The FTTH (fiber to the home) is only available in very limited areas and is 175/175, however we do not offer the 175Mbps service.

If you currently have the 50/10 with Bell then that is the same service we're offering and while Bell calls it 'Fibe', it isn't fibre directly to the home as misleading as it sounds.

Our availability tool at »www.start.ca/services/highspeed/availability will let you check directly or if you have any problems/questions feel free to PM me your full address and I can verify.

Thanks for your interest in our services.

edit: Sorry, I misread that you had 50/50 already, so likely you have fibre directly to the home and no copper entering the building at all. If that's the case, then no we wouldn't be able to provide DSL based services at your home.



MJB

join:2012-01-29

Why Doesn't Canada Have FTTH In Every home.. google fiber is an example... cause the isp's are lazy ****S



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

More like because the ISPs don't have Scrooge McDuck money vaults to swim in like you do.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



MJB

join:2012-01-29

lol 2080 we will still have 5mbit internet and the average speed for 10800 p resolution movies would require 1000 megabit connections period

lol

canada is so screwed !



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to BriEE

Perhaps the incumbents aren't putting as much money into infrastructure as we'd like, but the 50/10 VDSL2 connection that I'm about to order is a damned sight faster than the 1 meg DSL connection I started out with years ago.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to MJB

said by MJB:

Why Doesn't Canada Have FTTH In Every home.. google fiber is an example... cause the isp's are lazy ****S

Google Fiber is only in one city in the whole continental U.S. and Verizon Fiber expansion has stopped dead in its tracks.

rocca, Bell offers a 50/50 FTTH profile as well.


FiberToTheX
Premium
join:2013-03-14
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to MJB

said by MJB:

Why Doesn't Canada Have FTTH In Every home.. google fiber is an example... cause the isp's are lazy ****S

Because certain parts of Canada (especially Ontario) want to maximize their return on investment for Cable/DSL even though those technologies are prehistoric compared to GPON FTTH.

If you look at Saskatchewan or the Maritime Provinces they are doing a massive roll-out program of FTTH (Sasktel since 2011 and Bell Aliant since 2009). Infact Bell Aliant is the second largest FTTH provider in the continent serving 670,000 Households.


WiMax

join:2003-07-12
Canada
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to MJB

MJB, FTTH is NOT ubiquitous as you make it to be. You mentioned Google FTTH - it's currently available in a few neighbourhoods in 3 US cities only! They are expanding but it takes time and a LOT OF MONEY to run fiber directly to the residence. Same here in Canada, it's only available in a very limited number of places in Toronto and Montreal. It will take 10 years before FTTH is the standard defacto. (BTW, someone I know in Burlington needed fiber to his house to support 4 commercial servers for his business. He now has it, but it took over a year of planning and about $12K in permitting and installation costs. IT was that or wait about 5 years for it to get to that neighbourhood. Just the cost to the city for permits to tunnel under streets was hundreds of dollars!



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to yyzlhr

said by yyzlhr:

Incumbents are not required to open up their FTTH infrastructure to TPIAs. So no, TPIAs like start cannot offer services over Bell's FTTH last mile, like they can with the copper last mile.

You're a little confused. Cable providers using FTTH via RFoG will do TPIA, as the service is identical to that provided by coax, it is merely delivered to the house via fibre and then a "mini node" inside the home changed the physical transport medium inside the home from fibre to coax. The customer won't know any difference between the fact that they're on fibre and someone down the street may be fed directly with coax. The cable modems, DCTs and everything else are identical and even the frequencies used for QAM on RF will be the same. RFoG uses different wavelengths than regular GPON, so it is possible in the future that cable companies may do more exciting things with their FTTH deployments, but as it stands now FTTH from cable companies is pretty dull.

Bell's FTTH is a proper GPON system where they put an ONT into the house and deliver different services over it than they do on their copper network. It is not possible to do DSL over fibre, and Bell is not required to do GAS (the proper name for wholesale DSL, TPIA is cable only) over fibre so the only option for someone in a FTTH 'hood to get service other than over cable is either 5/1, 50/50 or 175/175 directly from Bell. On the bright side, their 50/50 FTTH is outright bloody cheap (even with a $10 or $30 unlimited add-on) compared to equivalent cable or copper-fed DSL.

There's a lot of FTTH out there on the cable provider side of things, people just don't know it. Rogers has been doing it for over a decade and there's lots of Cogeco fibre strung up to houses even here in Fort Erie. FTTH is rarer on the Bell side of things but even now there's all sorts of FTTH even here in the Niagara Region, particularly in Thorold and Niagara Falls.

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

said by Gone:

said by yyzlhr:

Incumbents are not required to open up their FTTH infrastructure to TPIAs. So no, TPIAs like start cannot offer services over Bell's FTTH last mile, like they can with the copper last mile.

You're a little confused. Cable providers using FTTH via RFoG will do TPIA, as the service is identical to that provided by coax, it is merely delivered to the house via fibre and then a "mini node" inside the home changed the physical transport medium inside the home from fibre to coax. The customer won't know any difference between the fact that they're on fibre and someone down the street may be fed directly with coax. The cable modems, DCTs and everything else are identical and even the frequencies used for QAM on RF will be the same. RFoG uses different wavelengths than regular GPON, so it is possible in the future that cable companies may do more exciting things with their FTTH deployments, but as it stands now FTTH from cable companies is pretty dull.

Sorry, I was just generalizing.

Does anyone with RFoG have TPIA service? I remember reading a few threads a while back where people were complaining they were not able to sign up for TPIA service in a Rogers RFoG area. Theoretically speaking there should be no issue as it's all provisioned using the DOCSIS standard, but I wonder if Rogers or other cable companies are allowed to deny service to TPIA just because the last mile is fibre.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to MJB

said by MJB:

Why Doesn't Canada Have FTTH In Every home.. google fiber is an example... cause the isp's are lazy ****S

Google FTTH is not in every American home either... In fact, it's only in Kansas City and is slowly expanding to its suburbs.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by yyzlhr:

Incumbents are not required to open up their FTTH infrastructure to TPIAs. So no, TPIAs like start cannot offer services over Bell's FTTH last mile, like they can with the copper last mile.

You're a little confused. Cable providers using FTTH via RFoG will do TPIA, as the service is identical to that provided by coax, it is merely delivered to the house via fibre and then a "mini node" inside the home changed the physical transport medium inside the home from fibre to coax. The customer won't know any difference between the fact that they're on fibre and someone down the street may be fed directly with coax. The cable modems, DCTs and everything else are identical and even the frequencies used for QAM on RF will be the same. RFoG uses different wavelengths than regular GPON, so it is possible in the future that cable companies may do more exciting things with their FTTH deployments, but as it stands now FTTH from cable companies is pretty dull.

There's a lot of FTTH out there on the cable provider side of things, people just don't know it. Rogers has been doing it for over a decade and there's lots of Cogeco fibre strung up to houses even here in Fort Erie. FTTH is rarer on the Bell side of things but even now there's all sorts of FTTH even here in the Niagara Region, particularly in Thorold and Niagara Falls.

...What was that company in 2004-2005ish that had it...I can't remember the name of it that they had Fibre in their neighbourhoods and that's it...and then Rogers bought them out a couple of years afterwards, they were in a couple of brand new subdivisions if I recall.

Can anyone get Cable TPIA in those neighbourhood?

Also, Aliant up here is doing FTTH...I think the speeds are kinda crappy at 50/30 for a Fibre service...but its happenning in more places than you think...

The question would be, why up here? Do we have a lot of money? Not really....but we have what makes it much cheaper to install...Aerial infrastructure...no need for permits or digging or whatnot like in Underground areas..so it makes things much quicker to install. Example, my building will be ready for it in a couple of months. I'm still on the fence about it because I feel they should be able to offer a faster speed but...that's just me.

The argument against offering companies like Start and TSI access to these "FTTH" networks is because Bell built them from the ground up with no "subsidies" or "monopolies" in place...and I think the CRTC has ruled that is the case.

So they're kinda stuck.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.


yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

said by Gone:

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.

More interesting is that Rogers has not converted RFoG areas to true GPON and just offer the exact same packages as non GPON areas to ensure that those customers don't have a choice but to sign up with Rogers.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by yyzlhr:

More interesting is that Rogers has not converted RFoG areas to true GPON and just offer the exact same packages as non GPON areas to ensure that those customers don't have a choice but to sign up with Rogers.

Well, it is GPON, they just aren't using it the same well Bell uses their GPON networks. The thing is that they really don't need to do anything more than RFoG and cable companies most likely won't be doing anything fancy with their fibre for quite some time yet. DOCSIS provides everything they need to deliver high-bandwidth services. DOCSIS 3.1 is specifically designed to take advantage of RFoG. They can ramp up the bandwidth from 860MHz to 1GHz and even up to 1.3GHz to deliver even more "bandwidth" over the fibre for additional QAM channels. There's simply no point in overlaying their fibre network with additional wavelengths when the RFoG they have now works and does everything they need.

Though, having said that, I believe Rogers does do 250Mbit/s service that is only specific to their FTTH deployments or something like that.

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

said by Gone:

said by yyzlhr:

More interesting is that Rogers has not converted RFoG areas to true GPON and just offer the exact same packages as non GPON areas to ensure that those customers don't have a choice but to sign up with Rogers.

Well, it is GPON, they just aren't using it the same well Bell uses their GPON networks. The thing is that they really don't need to do anything more than RFoG and cable companies most likely won't be doing anything fancy with their fibre for quite some time yet. DOCSIS provides everything they need to deliver high-bandwidth services. DOCSIS 3.1 is specifically designed to take advantage of RFoG. They can ramp up the bandwidth from 860MHz to 1GHz and even up to 1.3GHz to deliver even more "bandwidth" over the fibre for additional QAM channels. There's simply no point in overlaying their fibre network with additional wavelengths when the RFoG they have now works and does everything they need.

It is GPON in the sense that the fibre cables are the same, but it isn't GPON at the same time due to the different wavelengths being utilized and the different provisioning system.

Surely there is plenty of room to grow with RFoG, but if Rogers hates TPIAs so much, they should just deploy GPON the way Bell does it, and offer the same packages that coax customers get. This would prevent TPIAs from capturing customers from all new developments and ensure everything is seamless from a marketing perspective.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

They could, but then they'd need to get into ONTs and modems just for television the way that Bell does with Fibe TV and overall it would be a far larger effort for the limited amount of return just to get rid of TPIA.



nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.

FCI!...I knew there was an F in it...couldn't remember the rest....kept coming up with Fibrewired which I believe was in Hamilton as an arm of the former Hamilton Hydro/Utilities...anywho...

This RF over Glass looks interesting...but you guys forget something.

The same reason why Bell hasn't deployed wide scale FTTH is going to be the same reason that Rogers won't (in currently built neighbourhoods of course)....cost.

They have a perfectly decent Coax network out there now...and to flip around and have the capital cost that they'd incur...will just not fly. Again, in new installations, it makes sense...but retrofitting, especially apartment buildings...with their myriad of issues in regards to ownership and access....I see it happenning, but not in the next 20 years unfortunately....because the cable co's just finished spending money about 10 years ago to upgrade their coax network....and most canadian telecom companies love to squeeze every last cent out of their networks before they even think of spending anything...


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Deploying RFoG, at least to the pedestal, makes sense even for existing builds if they want to do stuff beyond 900-1GHz. At that point it's cheaper to do RFoG and only keep the coax from the pole to and into the home than it would be to completely groom and upgrade the entire coax network. This is only further compounded as node sizes continue to get smaller and smaller. Bell is in a completely different boat, switching copper out for fibre is indeed a very expensive venture. You'll probably see the cable companies switch out their coax for fibre before Bell does, the only difference will be that you won't ever know it.

And yeah, Fibrewired was the all-encompassing brand for all of the local municipal fibre networks across Ontario.


koreyb
Open the Canadian Market NOW

join:2005-01-08
East York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to BriEE

Hurontel, Wightman, etc have done true FTTH for a while now, moving into BELL areas with it, and it's worked well for them. Prices are actually very FAIR! My parents live in Goderich, which is a Bell area, but when you can get true FTTH, TV, Phone and Internet for 115 a month from Hurontel (not just a basic tv package) with FREE INSTALL, it was a very easy decision to make. If these small telcoms can do it, bell sure can!

I wish FTTH was available in all areas. I would Love to see TSI/start offer FTTH where I live I've often said, like sewage, water and hydro.. communities should install DARK FIBRE to each lot, going to one central location that ALL providers, pay to use to serve their customers. Price it at the cost it requires to keep the fibre system running, and upgraded. Each ISP would setup their own equipment on each end of the fibre line to supply service.


Toastertech
Premium
join:2003-01-05
Trenton, ON
reply to nitzguy

Isn't Vianet starting to offer FTTH in Sudbury and Chapleau also.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

I believe they ripped out all their coax and replaced it with fibre in Chapleau, which could just be RFoG. Not sure what they're doing in Sudbury.


ZombieBanner

join:2012-11-14
Chatham, ON
reply to Toastertech

In Sudbury Vianet are laying fibre just like Bell Alliant, aerial but it seems the project is slow to get going, still very limited areas, and the bad part is every time I try to qualify an address they say no, so I'm asking where they do have service and wont tell me.

I was looking to buy a house in a neighbourhood with fibre, and the company wont even tell me where they currently have it installed.



FiberToTheX
Premium
join:2013-03-14
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

1 edit
reply to nitzguy

said by nitzguy:

said by Gone:

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.

FCI!...I knew there was an F in it...couldn't remember the rest....kept coming up with Fibrewired which I believe was in Hamilton as an arm of the former Hamilton Hydro/Utilities...anywho...

This RF over Glass looks interesting...but you guys forget something.

The same reason why Bell hasn't deployed wide scale FTTH is going to be the same reason that Rogers won't (in currently built neighbourhoods of course)....cost.

They have a perfectly decent Coax network out there now...and to flip around and have the capital cost that they'd incur...will just not fly. Again, in new installations, it makes sense...but retrofitting, especially apartment buildings...with their myriad of issues in regards to ownership and access....I see it happenning, but not in the next 20 years unfortunately....because the cable co's just finished spending money about 10 years ago to upgrade their coax network....and most canadian telecom companies love to squeeze every last cent out of their networks before they even think of spending anything...

Telus in the 1990's began laying massive amounts Fiber Optic cable around Toronto and finished it sometime during the dot-com bubble bust of around 2001-2002. Some portions were re-used in Cityplace but most of it is Dark fiber currently. I believe Beanfield may be using it right now with Lofts and Condo's but I cannot confirm it.

The earliest use of transport fiber optic use was by Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan , Manitoba and the Maritime Provinces are leading in terms of Canadian FTTH deployment with Manitoba/Saskatechwan aiming to finish by 2017/2018 for all major cities/population centers.

FTTH costs are actually much lower in the long-run than that of deploying coax or copper and retro-fitting it. Vectoring DSL is just another example of how DSL technology although outdated and ancient is still trying to be shoved to the masses through small-scale modernization technology and programs. It also isn't that expensive to introduce FTTH to existing homes either through trenching or aerial deployment. Just look at the examples of Bell Aliant which has covered 670,000 Households in a period of roughly 3-4 Years. Progress is a bit slower with Sasktel but they have already covered significant portions of Regina and Saskatoon with the remaining slated for 2014-2017 if they still can meet the roadmap.

Also there is no need to defend or support Canada's coaxial or DSL networks currently. They are ancient/pre-historic technologies that are under-maintained and/or oversubscribed. Think of the analogy of the band-aid solution and FTTN and higher dsl/cable internet bandwidth plans. The modernization capability for those technologies is practically finished and they will never be able to match a true GPON deployment in bandwidth or throughput. With the case of Apartment buildings it's already available in the United States with Verizon Fios and with Bell Aliant. I see Sasktel and MTS also deploying it in city apartments.

Also for example in South Korea and Sweden they are much more advanced in efficient and effective apartment and MDU deployment of FTTH.

Also in certain parts of Ontario especially Toronto I don't see FTTN deployment finished until 2015 if Bell can meet their roadmap. It's still an interim step and a stop-gap band-aid measure. Once the GTA can have FTTN deployment finished then perhaps within a decade FTTH deployment will reach 50-75% of the GTA.

Reference:

»Re: Start communications as of Feb-11-2013 2Mb DSL service


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to BriEE

Coax has a capacity with DOCSIS 3.1 that is similar to the fastest FTTH can do today via 10GPON, so it's not really accurate to say that coax isn't able to deliver.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



FiberToTheX
Premium
join:2013-03-14
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by Guspaz:

Coax has a capacity with DOCSIS 3.1 that is similar to the fastest FTTH can do today via 10GPON, so it's not really accurate to say that coax isn't able to deliver.

Just compare how many Subscribers you have to one node with coax and how many subscribers with GPON. Let's not forget that Coax is shared bandwidth and is such is more restricted than that of GPON which while is shared has a significant less subscriber amount to a single node. Typically it is split to 16-28 premises compared with Coax which can be split to thousands of premises.

If Coax was so capable then why are many countries deploying GPON FTTH networks and not deploying Coax over DOCSIS3. That should be self-explanatory.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by FiberToTheX:

Just compare how many Subscribers you have to one node with coax and how many subscribers with GPON. Let's not forget that Coax is shared bandwidth and is such is more restricted than that of GPON which while is shared has a significant less subscriber amount to a single node. Typically it is split to 16-28 premises compared with Coax which can be split to thousands of premises.

If Coax was so capable then why are many countries deploying GPON FTTH networks and not deploying Coax over DOCSIS3. That should be self-explanatory.

Can't compare deployments in new construction areas to existing urban and suburban centers that easily. It's perfect sense to lay FTTH in new subdivision and buildings being constructed. But with existing infrastructure, if its able to deliver, it makes less sense to rip it all out for FTTH. Rogers has a profile up to 150/10, the only downside here is the lopsided ration of download to upload but people that would need more than 10Mbps up aren't going to be a large crowd.

Seeing as how in recent years its been revenue that has paid for all of Rogers' network upgrade,they get to decide when they made enough return on their investment. The people invested in Rogers too via shares want to see returns on their investments too.This is the double edge blade of capitalism, sure its a free market, but greed leads just as much of a lack of innovation as it innovates.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to FiberToTheX

said by FiberToTheX:

If Coax was so capable then why are many countries deploying GPON FTTH networks and not deploying Coax over DOCSIS3. That should be self-explanatory.

... how about because they never had any coax to begin with and fibre has been far cheaper to deploy than coax for about the last decade or so? Contrast this to North America where we've had coax strung to homes for the last 60 years.

You really don't have a good underlying understanding of the capabilities of coax. You go on about node sizes "in the thousands" and mention small GPON "node" sizes, yet the reality is that they are functionally the same. You can have GPON splitters that serve hundreds of homes while you can have coax nodes that are small as 60 homes like what Mountain Cablevision was doing in Hamilton before Shaw bought them. Functionally fibre and coax are no different. How well either one works comes down purely to how they are deployed. With DOCSIS 3.1, the amount of bandwidth will be the same as that for pure GPON.