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FiberToTheX
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Re: Start.ca - won't offer FTTH (Home)?



Most consumers these days care more about symmetrical speeds for download/upload than being limited to download/upload ratio's simply because of the technology employed. Take for example uploading photos/pictures , cloud storage and backup and so forth...

Capitalism doesn't exist in Canada or the US. It's corporatism based on Oligpolies in Canada backed by lack of effective regulation and lack of open-access technology and networks in Canada. There are exceptions (Sasktel/MTS and Bell Aliant) however those are few in kind.

I've told my friends in various FTTH deployed countries about Canadian Internet access compared to theirs and Canada is decades behind and the implementation of caps is a laughing matter not to mention if it was implemented for their country they would be able to stand-up for their rights to open access networks unlike the passiveness of Canadian's to accept bigger/faster speeds for more and less delivered.

Guspaz
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Modern cable nodes don't serve thousands of nodes. When Videotron moved to their hybrid fiber network in 2008, they moved to 125 users per node. It's possible (likely?) that they and carriers further along the curve than them like Shaw have moved to even smaller nodes in the following half decade.

10GPON, meanwhile, supports up to 128 users per node. It is, like cable, a shared medium.

TypeS
join:2012-12-17
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You're wrong, most people don't care about symmetrical speeds, most people don't even know what speeds they're paying for. You can't use the consensus of these forums because they represent such a miniscule fraction of the general population.

10Mbps is more than enough for uploading pictures and in most cases compressed HD home videos.

Many of the countries you are using as examples had little to no copper infrastructure to begin with, so Telcos there decided to go with Fibre. And in EU a lot of the FTTH push has been aided by government subsidies. They also pay a lot more in government taxes there than either Canada or the US.

Why don't you go run a campaign and see how much of the population would be in favour of a tax that would go directly to subsidizing FTTH.

Gone
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said by FiberToTheX:

Most consumers these days care more about symmetrical speeds for download/upload than being limited to download/upload ratio's simply because of the technology employed. Take for example uploading photos/pictures , cloud storage and backup and so forth...

Bullshit. Most consumers these days don't know the difference. They attach their picture to an email, they hit send and it sends. That's all "most consumers" care about.

We here are not "most consumers" - we are a very small subset of knowledgeable (well, most of us anyway ) users who are technically inclined and use our Internet connections in ways well beyond what "most consumers" would ever do. To some of us return performance is very important. Even then, to many more of us it still doesn't matter. What matters most is downstream performance.

This is all a bit divergent though, since even 10GPON is 10/2.5 asymmetrical. Compare this to DOCSIS 3.1 which is 10/1.
said by FiberToTheX:

Capitalism doesn't exist in Canada or the US.

*sigh* and with that, any last remaining shred of credibility you may have had just got pissed down the drain...

Guspaz
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That's my point, they're pretty similar at this point. 10/1 versus 10/2.5 is not an enormous difference, and I'd argue that a 4:1 ratio between downstream and upstream is probably overkill anyhow. If you've got 125 users per node (it seems like Videotron didn't split nodes farther than that from what I'm seeing), and you're selling people, say, 175/175, that's only a 22:1 oversubscription on the upstream, which sounds low to me. Besides, there may just be a DOCSIS 3.2 next that bumps up the upstream again anyhow.

Gone
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said by Guspaz:

Modern cable nodes don't serve thousands of nodes. When Videotron moved to their hybrid fiber network in 2008, they moved to 125 users per node. It's possible (likely?) that they and carriers further along the curve than them like Shaw have moved to even smaller nodes in the following half decade.

Mountain was down to 60 homes per node in Hamilton back before they sold to Shaw. Shaw is in a similar boat with most of their plants. I have no idea what Rogers or Cogeco do but I suspect it would be in the ~100 range depending on traffic requirements.

I had a map of all of Cogeco's nodes in Niagara right down to the individual property sizes from about ten years or so ago. Even back then it wasn't much more than a few hundred.

I can understand a push for FTTH from the telcos since you can only move a 7330 so close to someone's house. For cable it's a bit of an asinine argument, and even then they are light years ahead in FTTH deployment - it's just that most people don't even know they have FTTH from their cable company.

Guspaz
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The nice thing for the telcos, though, is that they have a nice upgrade path... If memory serves, you can just swap out the line cards in the 7330 for GPON ones and boom, you've got the head-end of a PON... then you just need to replace the copper.

Where would the cableco be putting the ONT, if they're deploying transparent FTTH using RFoG? You'd think they couldn't install it as CPE because they'd have no power if it wasn't known to the customer, and if they're putting it a bit farther back in the network, it's not really FTTH... I mean, if the ONT is on the pole, that's fine for RFoG, but you can't use it as a proper optical service at that point (as in you couldn't do anything but RFoG).

Gone
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The Cogeco ONTs (or "mini nodes") are mounted in a box on the side of the house. Fibre comes into the box and goes out as coax before being passed into the home. The power comes from an Alpha battery backup unit that passes power over the coax to power the ONT. The Alpha box is either mounted right next to the ONT box getting power from the hydro meter, or inside the house plugged into an electrical outlet near where the coax enters the home.

FiberToTheX
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said by Guspaz:

Modern cable nodes don't serve thousands of nodes. When Videotron moved to their hybrid fiber network in 2008, they moved to 125 users per node. It's possible (likely?) that they and carriers further along the curve than them like Shaw have moved to even smaller nodes in the following half decade.

10GPON, meanwhile, supports up to 128 users per node. It is, like cable, a shared medium.

That's true it is a shared medium however examples of FTTH GPON deployment in the field usually have less than the maxmimum amount of users supported per node. I'm not really aware of any field deployments that usually do more than 65-75% of the user support capacity per node.
quote:
*sigh* and with that, any last remaining shred of credibility you may have had just got pissed down the drain...

I doubt it. I'd like to be convinced otherwise which I doubt will happen anyway.
said by Guspaz:

The nice thing for the telcos, though, is that they have a nice upgrade path... If memory serves, you can just swap out the line cards in the 7330 for GPON ones and boom, you've got the head-end of a PON... then you just need to replace the copper.

It does provide them with an interim path but FTTN deployment should have been completed by the last decade with FTTH deployment to FTTN areas completed by the mid-2015's. However I doubt this would be met. Japan for example began Deploying Fiber Optic in 1999 and only began subscribing end users in 2001.
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said by Gone:

They could, but then they'd need to get into ONTs and modems just for television the way that Bell does with Fibe TV and overall it would be a far larger effort for the limited amount of return just to get rid of TPIA.

Verizon FiOS still delivers TV over QAM like Rogers instead of IP like Bell so they just need to install ONTs in the homes and integrate their backend provisioning systems. I assume Rogers already has the provisioning and backend systems somewhat ready as they have been delivering GPON business services for a while and they recently got into the residential game with their 250/250 tier.

I'm also not suggesting that they overlay fibre in existing coax areas as that simply isn't feasible considering the large urban areas Rogers serves. I'm just saying it's interesting that homes that have RFoG by Rogers aren't being converted to true GPON to shut out competition by TPIAs.

Lastly, I'm not sure why everyone thinks that everyone in Europe has FTTH. I can't comment on Asia, but I've lived in several major cities in Europe, mostly in new developments and I was only able to get DSL (VDSL if I was lucky), and DOCSIS. Although the DSL was dirt cheap in North American standards the speeds were paltry. DOCSIS speeds were on par with what Rogers was offering and was typically cost the same amount, but it did not come with caps.

Guspaz
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It's not clear that RFoG service would be exempt from TPIA. The FTTN hearings at the CRTC seemed to indicate that any amount of copper in the path would cause it to be considered a copper service, and RFoG is ultimately still delivering RF over copper at the end of the chain.

Bell got out of it because they're doing a proper GPON deployment where the fiber is itself the endpoint that gets split up into ethernet and television and such.
yyzlhr
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said by Guspaz:

It's not clear that RFoG service would be exempt from TPIA. The FTTN hearings at the CRTC seemed to indicate that any amount of copper in the path would cause it to be considered a copper service, and RFoG is ultimately still delivering RF over copper at the end of the chain.

Bell got out of it because they're doing a proper GPON deployment where the fiber is itself the endpoint that gets split up into ethernet and television and such.

Hmm but couldn't Rogers argue that the coax does not come in play until the fibre reaches the inside of the customer's home? Most Rogers RoFG deployments have the fibre coming into the home itself where the ONU is installed indoors and then it travels over the customers internal coax wiring.

Guspaz
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In that case, yes, but if they're sticking the ONT on the outside of the customer's home, you could probably successfully argue that should be TPIA...

Ultimately I think FTTH will fall under CRTC wholesale regulation anyhow, but probably not until a significant proportion of customers are served by it.

FiberToTheX
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said by Guspaz:

In that case, yes, but if they're sticking the ONT on the outside of the customer's home, you could probably successfully argue that should be TPIA...

Ultimately I think FTTH will fall under CRTC wholesale regulation anyhow, but probably not until a significant proportion of customers are served by it.

670,000 Households isn't a significant proportion if we use Bell Aliant's penetration in the Maritime Provinces ?
said by yyzlhr:

said by Gone:

They could, but then they'd need to get into ONTs and modems just for television the way that Bell does with Fibe TV and overall it would be a far larger effort for the limited amount of return just to get rid of TPIA.

Lastly, I'm not sure why everyone thinks that everyone in Europe has FTTH. I can't comment on Asia, but I've lived in several major cities in Europe, mostly in new developments and I was only able to get DSL (VDSL if I was lucky), and DOCSIS. Although the DSL was dirt cheap in North American standards the speeds were paltry. DOCSIS speeds were on par with what Rogers was offering and was typically cost the same amount, but it did not come with caps.

Depends really in which country you lived in Europe. There is a FTTH Penetration chart and graph that shows that the most FTTH Deployments occur for Europe in: Sweden , Norway , Lithuania , Latvia and a few other countries. Sweden/Norway/Lithuania being the primary countries where large-scale deployment is occurring.

Guspaz
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Has Aliant actually converted all of those homes to fiber, or have they merely passed them with fiber? In any case, that's still only roughly 5% of households in Canada, and the CRTC didn't regulate FTTN/HFC networks until they had hit almost fifty percent...

Somebody might have success trying to get FTTH regulated in Aliant territory, but there aren't any IISPs with a big enough presence there for it to be worth their time, and it would likely still take years to get anything out of the CRTC on the subject.