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nitzguy
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join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

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Re: Start.ca - won't offer FTTH (Home)?

said by Gone:

said by yyzlhr:

Incumbents are not required to open up their FTTH infrastructure to TPIAs. So no, TPIAs like start cannot offer services over Bell's FTTH last mile, like they can with the copper last mile.

You're a little confused. Cable providers using FTTH via RFoG will do TPIA, as the service is identical to that provided by coax, it is merely delivered to the house via fibre and then a "mini node" inside the home changed the physical transport medium inside the home from fibre to coax. The customer won't know any difference between the fact that they're on fibre and someone down the street may be fed directly with coax. The cable modems, DCTs and everything else are identical and even the frequencies used for QAM on RF will be the same. RFoG uses different wavelengths than regular GPON, so it is possible in the future that cable companies may do more exciting things with their FTTH deployments, but as it stands now FTTH from cable companies is pretty dull.

There's a lot of FTTH out there on the cable provider side of things, people just don't know it. Rogers has been doing it for over a decade and there's lots of Cogeco fibre strung up to houses even here in Fort Erie. FTTH is rarer on the Bell side of things but even now there's all sorts of FTTH even here in the Niagara Region, particularly in Thorold and Niagara Falls.

...What was that company in 2004-2005ish that had it...I can't remember the name of it that they had Fibre in their neighbourhoods and that's it...and then Rogers bought them out a couple of years afterwards, they were in a couple of brand new subdivisions if I recall.

Can anyone get Cable TPIA in those neighbourhood?

Also, Aliant up here is doing FTTH...I think the speeds are kinda crappy at 50/30 for a Fibre service...but its happenning in more places than you think...

The question would be, why up here? Do we have a lot of money? Not really....but we have what makes it much cheaper to install...Aerial infrastructure...no need for permits or digging or whatnot like in Underground areas..so it makes things much quicker to install. Example, my building will be ready for it in a couple of months. I'm still on the fence about it because I feel they should be able to offer a faster speed but...that's just me.

The argument against offering companies like Start and TSI access to these "FTTH" networks is because Bell built them from the ground up with no "subsidies" or "monopolies" in place...and I think the CRTC has ruled that is the case.

So they're kinda stuck.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr

Member

said by Gone:

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.

More interesting is that Rogers has not converted RFoG areas to true GPON and just offer the exact same packages as non GPON areas to ensure that those customers don't have a choice but to sign up with Rogers.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by yyzlhr:

More interesting is that Rogers has not converted RFoG areas to true GPON and just offer the exact same packages as non GPON areas to ensure that those customers don't have a choice but to sign up with Rogers.

Well, it is GPON, they just aren't using it the same well Bell uses their GPON networks. The thing is that they really don't need to do anything more than RFoG and cable companies most likely won't be doing anything fancy with their fibre for quite some time yet. DOCSIS provides everything they need to deliver high-bandwidth services. DOCSIS 3.1 is specifically designed to take advantage of RFoG. They can ramp up the bandwidth from 860MHz to 1GHz and even up to 1.3GHz to deliver even more "bandwidth" over the fibre for additional QAM channels. There's simply no point in overlaying their fibre network with additional wavelengths when the RFoG they have now works and does everything they need.

Though, having said that, I believe Rogers does do 250Mbit/s service that is only specific to their FTTH deployments or something like that.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr

Member

said by Gone:

said by yyzlhr:

More interesting is that Rogers has not converted RFoG areas to true GPON and just offer the exact same packages as non GPON areas to ensure that those customers don't have a choice but to sign up with Rogers.

Well, it is GPON, they just aren't using it the same well Bell uses their GPON networks. The thing is that they really don't need to do anything more than RFoG and cable companies most likely won't be doing anything fancy with their fibre for quite some time yet. DOCSIS provides everything they need to deliver high-bandwidth services. DOCSIS 3.1 is specifically designed to take advantage of RFoG. They can ramp up the bandwidth from 860MHz to 1GHz and even up to 1.3GHz to deliver even more "bandwidth" over the fibre for additional QAM channels. There's simply no point in overlaying their fibre network with additional wavelengths when the RFoG they have now works and does everything they need.

It is GPON in the sense that the fibre cables are the same, but it isn't GPON at the same time due to the different wavelengths being utilized and the different provisioning system.

Surely there is plenty of room to grow with RFoG, but if Rogers hates TPIAs so much, they should just deploy GPON the way Bell does it, and offer the same packages that coax customers get. This would prevent TPIAs from capturing customers from all new developments and ensure everything is seamless from a marketing perspective.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

They could, but then they'd need to get into ONTs and modems just for television the way that Bell does with Fibe TV and overall it would be a far larger effort for the limited amount of return just to get rid of TPIA.

nitzguy
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join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

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said by Gone:

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.

FCI!...I knew there was an F in it...couldn't remember the rest....kept coming up with Fibrewired which I believe was in Hamilton as an arm of the former Hamilton Hydro/Utilities...anywho...

This RF over Glass looks interesting...but you guys forget something.

The same reason why Bell hasn't deployed wide scale FTTH is going to be the same reason that Rogers won't (in currently built neighbourhoods of course)....cost.

They have a perfectly decent Coax network out there now...and to flip around and have the capital cost that they'd incur...will just not fly. Again, in new installations, it makes sense...but retrofitting, especially apartment buildings...with their myriad of issues in regards to ownership and access....I see it happenning, but not in the next 20 years unfortunately....because the cable co's just finished spending money about 10 years ago to upgrade their coax network....and most canadian telecom companies love to squeeze every last cent out of their networks before they even think of spending anything...

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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Deploying RFoG, at least to the pedestal, makes sense even for existing builds if they want to do stuff beyond 900-1GHz. At that point it's cheaper to do RFoG and only keep the coax from the pole to and into the home than it would be to completely groom and upgrade the entire coax network. This is only further compounded as node sizes continue to get smaller and smaller. Bell is in a completely different boat, switching copper out for fibre is indeed a very expensive venture. You'll probably see the cable companies switch out their coax for fibre before Bell does, the only difference will be that you won't ever know it.

And yeah, Fibrewired was the all-encompassing brand for all of the local municipal fibre networks across Ontario.

Toastertech
Premium Member
join:2003-01-05
Canada

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Isn't Vianet starting to offer FTTH in Sudbury and Chapleau also.

Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

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I believe they ripped out all their coax and replaced it with fibre in Chapleau, which could just be RFoG. Not sure what they're doing in Sudbury.
ZombieBanner
join:2012-11-14
Chatham, ON

ZombieBanner to Toastertech

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In Sudbury Vianet are laying fibre just like Bell Alliant, aerial but it seems the project is slow to get going, still very limited areas, and the bad part is every time I try to qualify an address they say no, so I'm asking where they do have service and wont tell me.

I was looking to buy a house in a neighbourhood with fibre, and the company wont even tell me where they currently have it installed.

FiberToTheX
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join:2013-03-14

1 edit

FiberToTheX to nitzguy

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said by nitzguy:

said by Gone:

FCI - operating as Futureway - was the company and Rogers didn't fully purchase them until 2007. These guys were doing FTTH (as well as Fibre-to-the-Pedistal) in the late 90s. They contracted Rogers to supply TV with Futureway doing the phone directly, so Rogers outright buying them was a natural evolution. Some Futureway neighbourhoods had Futureway supply the Internet directly over fibre, others had Rogers do plain ol' DOCSIS using RFoG. TPIA will work in an RFoG area, but I can't speak for the other ones because I don't know what Rogers is doing now.

The interesting thing about those neighbourhoods is that there was (and some areas may still have) no Bell infrastructure.

FCI!...I knew there was an F in it...couldn't remember the rest....kept coming up with Fibrewired which I believe was in Hamilton as an arm of the former Hamilton Hydro/Utilities...anywho...

This RF over Glass looks interesting...but you guys forget something.

The same reason why Bell hasn't deployed wide scale FTTH is going to be the same reason that Rogers won't (in currently built neighbourhoods of course)....cost.

They have a perfectly decent Coax network out there now...and to flip around and have the capital cost that they'd incur...will just not fly. Again, in new installations, it makes sense...but retrofitting, especially apartment buildings...with their myriad of issues in regards to ownership and access....I see it happenning, but not in the next 20 years unfortunately....because the cable co's just finished spending money about 10 years ago to upgrade their coax network....and most canadian telecom companies love to squeeze every last cent out of their networks before they even think of spending anything...

Telus in the 1990's began laying massive amounts Fiber Optic cable around Toronto and finished it sometime during the dot-com bubble bust of around 2001-2002. Some portions were re-used in Cityplace but most of it is Dark fiber currently. I believe Beanfield may be using it right now with Lofts and Condo's but I cannot confirm it.

The earliest use of transport fiber optic use was by Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan , Manitoba and the Maritime Provinces are leading in terms of Canadian FTTH deployment with Manitoba/Saskatechwan aiming to finish by 2017/2018 for all major cities/population centers.

FTTH costs are actually much lower in the long-run than that of deploying coax or copper and retro-fitting it. Vectoring DSL is just another example of how DSL technology although outdated and ancient is still trying to be shoved to the masses through small-scale modernization technology and programs. It also isn't that expensive to introduce FTTH to existing homes either through trenching or aerial deployment. Just look at the examples of Bell Aliant which has covered 670,000 Households in a period of roughly 3-4 Years. Progress is a bit slower with Sasktel but they have already covered significant portions of Regina and Saskatoon with the remaining slated for 2014-2017 if they still can meet the roadmap.

Also there is no need to defend or support Canada's coaxial or DSL networks currently. They are ancient/pre-historic technologies that are under-maintained and/or oversubscribed. Think of the analogy of the band-aid solution and FTTN and higher dsl/cable internet bandwidth plans. The modernization capability for those technologies is practically finished and they will never be able to match a true GPON deployment in bandwidth or throughput. With the case of Apartment buildings it's already available in the United States with Verizon Fios and with Bell Aliant. I see Sasktel and MTS also deploying it in city apartments.

Also for example in South Korea and Sweden they are much more advanced in efficient and effective apartment and MDU deployment of FTTH.

Also in certain parts of Ontario especially Toronto I don't see FTTN deployment finished until 2015 if Bell can meet their roadmap. It's still an interim step and a stop-gap band-aid measure. Once the GTA can have FTTN deployment finished then perhaps within a decade FTTH deployment will reach 50-75% of the GTA.

Reference:

»Re: Start communications as of Feb-11-2013 2Mb DSL service
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to Gone

Member

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said by Gone:

They could, but then they'd need to get into ONTs and modems just for television the way that Bell does with Fibe TV and overall it would be a far larger effort for the limited amount of return just to get rid of TPIA.

Verizon FiOS still delivers TV over QAM like Rogers instead of IP like Bell so they just need to install ONTs in the homes and integrate their backend provisioning systems. I assume Rogers already has the provisioning and backend systems somewhat ready as they have been delivering GPON business services for a while and they recently got into the residential game with their 250/250 tier.

I'm also not suggesting that they overlay fibre in existing coax areas as that simply isn't feasible considering the large urban areas Rogers serves. I'm just saying it's interesting that homes that have RFoG by Rogers aren't being converted to true GPON to shut out competition by TPIAs.

Lastly, I'm not sure why everyone thinks that everyone in Europe has FTTH. I can't comment on Asia, but I've lived in several major cities in Europe, mostly in new developments and I was only able to get DSL (VDSL if I was lucky), and DOCSIS. Although the DSL was dirt cheap in North American standards the speeds were paltry. DOCSIS speeds were on par with what Rogers was offering and was typically cost the same amount, but it did not come with caps.