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Teddy Boom
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join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON
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TPIA Cable modems approval process, costs, other details

TwistedZero sent me this link a few days ago:
»www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2004/···4-37.htm

On a quick search, I can't find anything that supersedes it. That means two critical things for our purposes. All modems used by the incumbent should be available for TPIA as well

viii) no second-level testing is required for a cable modem previously found to be compatible with the cable carrier's network or that is the same model as that used by the cable carrier for its customers;
And TPIA companies do get 1 free new modem model per year:
i) the fee does not apply to one modem model submitted by an ISP for second-level testing, per 12-month period;
I take all this to mean that we should have A LOT more choice on the cable modem front than we do.

Any further info greatly appreciated.
--
electronicsguru.ca


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5

Unless I'm missing something, you already have the option of any supported Rogers modem though TekSavvy or another TPIA can stipulate the modems they will allow you to use since you sign up through them. Also Rogers has the final say based on the serial number if they will allow the specific modem on their network. Such as, even if they support say the sb5101 they can refuse to activate the modem if it is not a Rogers supplied modem and/or the firmware version is not permitted.



Teddy Boom
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said by mlerner:

Unless I'm missing something, you already have the option of any supported Rogers modem though TekSavvy can stipulate the modems they will allow you to use since you sign up through them. Also Rogers has the final say based on the serial number if they will allow the specific modem on their network. Such as, even if they support say the sb5101 they can refuse to activate the modem if it is not a Rogers supplied modem and/or the firmware version is not permitted.

I'm sure all the Rogers TPIAs who allow bring your own modem would gladly allow DPC3825 or Hitron modems to be used, if they could do it for free.

I've had customers rejected for attempting to bring SMC D3GN modems from Rogers to TPIA. I'm not talking about non-returned modem rejections, or any other issues. I'm talking about firmware only. See, Rogers KNOWS that all SMC D3GN modems that have been on Rogers own service for the last 6 months or so have 3.1.4.45.2. When a customer with that kind of modem tries to switch, Rogers will say "sorry, incorrect firmware version" (the firmware approved for TPIA is 1.4.0.40).

--
electronicsguru.ca


modemsmsms

@ecatel.net
reply to Teddy Boom

I've checked with a couple of the computer parts distributors and there aren't many cable modems stocked. The thompson/technicolor and a few cisco models like the DPC3825 are available as special order in some quantity; nothing else. Not really sure on what the quantity is or the lead times are. I'm also not really sure if there's an advantage to the dpc3825 over the dcm476 especially with all the firmware games.

It's likely the other brands distribute directly to cable operators. There could be very large stock requirements and I doubt many of the IISPs want to sit on thousands of modems that could "develop firmware issues" at any point. There's really not a retail source of many of these modems in Canada so most are probably coming from the second hand market with unknown firmware or unreturned rentals.

I'm all for choice but it seems all the problems with recent cable modems have been firmware issues not hardware failure. They all seem to work equally well hardware wise. When it all adds up it might not be worth the effort to get more modems certified.

Also in one of the recent threads Rocca mentioned you have to send 5 modems to get certified so if it's not something readily available somewhere even gathering up the 5 to get tested could be a lot of effort.



Teddy Boom
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said by modemsmsms :

dpc3825 over the dcm476 especially with all the firmware games.

The issue with the DPC3825 and the Hitron is that Rogers customers who have purchased their modems should be allowed to take them to TPIA providers. Retail issues are irrelevant there.

said by modemsmsms :

Also in one of the recent threads Rocca mentioned you have to send 5 modems to get certified so if it's not something readily available somewhere even gathering up the 5 to get tested could be a lot of effort.

And I would be happy to put up some modems to get this done for various models. The issue is, do the TPIA ISPs get 1 free per year, and if they do why don't they use them?

I suppose you are positing that they simply don't bother because they don't feel they need another modem certified at this time... Well, I'm not so sure about that
--
electronicsguru.ca


rocca
Start.ca
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London, ON
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There is still clarification to be done, ie one of the cablecos is trying to argue it's one free one for the entire network, not per ISP. It's an interesting read about the 'existing retail modems should be automatically certified', I'll bring that up at the next CNOC regulatory meeting.



modemsmsms

@ecatel.net
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

don't bother because they don't feel they need another modem certified at this time... Well, I'm not so sure about that

No, I agree 100% that rogers' customers with purchased modems should be able to use them on TPIA and anyone else buy them second hand as well. I never really understood what the problem was other than rogers being anti-competitive.

My point was that even if IISPs get a free modem per year (it seems more complicated as Rocca stated.) Other than the models they already sell and the secondary market of the 2 or 3 rogers modems. It may not be possible, or practical from a business standpoint to obtain for sale some of these other models. Unless one of the retailers wants to pick them up as in the us and can do the volume.

For example there's a thread where people are looking for a 6141 instead of the dcm476 but both brands have have issues with firmware(not just on rogers) and there's no evidence to suggest either has better hardware.

I'm all for choice with CPE hardware, the whole closed ecosystem is terrible. I'm just trying to shed some light from a supply chain perspective where some of the challenges are.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

1 edit
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

TwistedZero sent me this link a few days ago:
»www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2004/···4-37.htm

On a quick search, I can't find anything that supersedes it. That means two critical things for our purposes. All modems used by the incumbent should be available for TPIA as well

viii) no second-level testing is required for a cable modem previously found to be compatible with the cable carrier's network or that is the same model as that used by the cable carrier for its customers;
And TPIA companies do get 1 free new modem model per year:
i) the fee does not apply to one modem model submitted by an ISP for second-level testing, per 12-month period;
I take all this to mean that we should have A LOT more choice on the cable modem front than we do.

Any further info greatly appreciated.

There is also this Telecom Order CRTC 2007-442 | Third-party Internet access - Cable modem second-level testing |November 2007 Archived Content.

I'm also hunting more on this - any leads are welcome.

--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
kudos:1
reply to Teddy Boom

Rogers own Tarrif page clearly states 1 free modem per customer.

1.6 Second-level Testing of Cable Modem Models

i) the fee does not apply to one cable modem model submitted by a Customer for
second-level testing, per 12-month period;

ii) the fee does not apply to second-level testing of a cable modem model where the
cable modem model fails second-level testing, to a maximum of two failures cable
modem testing failures, referenced in ii), shall not be considered the one free
second-level testing, referenced in i), unless that cable modem model has already
failed second-level testing twice.



Teddy Boom
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said by andyb:

Rogers own Tarrif page clearly states 1 free modem per customer.

1.6 Second-level Testing of Cable Modem Models

i) the fee does not apply to one cable modem model submitted by a Customer for
second-level testing, per 12-month period;

Aha! That's the line I remember from a couple of years ago. Is that in the new stuff from this spring as well? I must have missed it..
--
electronicsguru.ca


Teddy Boom
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reply to rocca

said by rocca:

There is still clarification to be done, ie one of the cablecos is trying to argue it's one free one for the entire network, not per ISP. It's an interesting read about the 'existing retail modems should be automatically certified', I'll bring that up at the next CNOC regulatory meeting.

Thanks rocca! I certainly understand that this stuff has to be addressed with care. As I speculated in November, I think making Rogers accept SMCD3GN from third parties caused them to go into conniptions and drastically alter the supported equipment list
»Re: Is it end of docsys 2.0 modem era in Ottawa?
Extrapolating a bit, I think Rogers used to give a very long list of modems based on anything Docsis 2 they'd ever used themselves, plus Docsis 3 modems that were specially requested by a TPIA. At some point I think a TPIA asked that the smcd3gn be added, and shortly after that Rogers dropped all those Docsis 2 modems that had been automatically included. The list was then only modems that were specifically requested by a TPIA. In fact, that big change in September last year might have been a reaction to having to allow the smcd3gn
Interesting to integrate that speculation with the text of 2004-37 though. Clearly at some point Rogers complied with the requirement to support all modems they ever used themselves. Maybe the CRTC relaxed the requirement, but that seems unlikely..

And then there are the Cogeco requirements.. And Videotron.. And Shaw..
--
electronicsguru.ca

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to Teddy Boom

I wonder if they can get around that by saying that the different firmwares (ie Rogers branded, vs wholesale branding) negates that 'automatic' despite being cosmetic issues instead of ACTUAL updates/changes.
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andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
kudos:1
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

said by andyb:

Rogers own Tarrif page clearly states 1 free modem per customer.

1.6 Second-level Testing of Cable Modem Models

i) the fee does not apply to one cable modem model submitted by a Customer for
second-level testing, per 12-month period;

Aha! That's the line I remember from a couple of years ago. Is that in the new stuff from this spring as well? I must have missed it..

Not sure when its from but its on page 97A of the tarrif.I just noticed it yesterday when they sent out revisions from the last CRTC decision

downloadRevised Roge···2013.pdf 86955 bytes
Rogers revisions

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to Teddy Boom

I've gone through all following orders/notices/etc, and there's nothing that supercedes that 2004 order, which makes sense as that paragraph andyb found in Rogers' tariff is straight from the 2004 order.
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Battle.net Tech Support MVP



Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
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START Today!
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reply to Teddy Boom

 
Does any of this apply to us folks in Cogeco-Land ?

Can a TPIA ISP here make a request to approve/test a new modem model from time to time, and have it taken seriously ?


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

said by Davesnothere:

 
Does any of this apply to us folks in Cogeco-Land ?

Can a TPIA ISP here make a request to approve/test a new modem model from time to time, and have it taken seriously ?

It applies to all cable cos in Canada.
Dunno about resellers though.. I doubt it would, since you wouldnt be a direct customer of Cogeco.
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Battle.net Tech Support MVP