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hm
@videotron.ca

hm to Guspaz

Anon

to Guspaz

Re: CRTC 2013-80 Optional Upstream Speeds, DSL Modem Cert

said by Guspaz:

What was the demarc decision about?

Bell not wanting to put in demarc's for free. Wanting to be able to charge people (but it had to do with pots). Then they tried to file again to get rid of it.

CRTC insisted since it was a "diagnostic tool" that helped people trouble-shoot their line, and also prevented a diagnostic charge that Bell would charge since a person can determine on their own if it's a Bell problem or inside line problem.

If a person has no demarc, CRTC ruled that Bell can not charge their DMC (Diagnostic maintenance charge).

This is no different.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

Oh sorry.. No, demarc issue I don't think was covered, but JF & I both covered the fact that the stats page was disabled, and that bringing it back would allow people to diagnose their own issues without the dmcs.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to Guspaz

Anon

to Guspaz
I had a feeling I posted that here...

»New CRTC Demarcation decision
This is where Bell tried to get rid of it by claiming it adds no value for the customer to be able to plug into the test jack to check their line. In other words, Bell stated customers don't care where the problem is and if they get charged 100$ or not for something that could be a Bell issue and not an inside wire issue.

So again, the locked out stats in the lock-out firmware is no different. It's a diagnostic tool for the people. When couple with the demarc, it's the best possible tool for the people. But you know... Bell says nah, people don't want this. They prefer to pay us 100$ and believe what we tell them.

Anyhow Resa said someone mentioned this... I didn't see who though. Resa, you know who mentioned it?
hm

hm to resa1983

Anon

to resa1983
Resa, if ever you or JF can submit again, I would bring this up.

It's too bad no one made mention of this since the CRTC said people should have a diagnostic tool. This is no different.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

CRTC just sent out additional questions for Modem Cert/Optional Upload.

The questions are frankly amazing.

You need to read this. Huge questions regarding Stingers, as well as Cable 2nd level modem testing!

Montreal DSL
join:2011-02-02
Montreal-DSL

Montreal DSL to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
nice!
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

Major Items needing addressing:

1. Bell refusing to allow service to VDSL without a Sagemcom MAC - this means anyone lucky to be on a 7330, has no choice but to pay for the Sagemcom when they can BYOM.
2. Can't BYOM for anyone on a Stinger.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to resa1983

MVM

to resa1983
Well, HiVolt did find that modem that worked on the stingers, except it doesn't do the upstream at full speed.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

1 edit

resa1983

Premium Member

AHSSPI definition from Bell (with pictures! ooooh!)

EDIT: Apologies for the image. It looks pretty in the .doc, not so pretty following the pdf converter.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to resa1983

Member

to resa1983
said by resa1983:

The questions are frankly amazing.

Amazingly irrelevant?

What is the point of requesting forecast of orders for "optional upload" on Bell when it is standard on VDSL2 tiers?

Seems like the CRTC grasping at straws there.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

CNOC requests additional info regarding AHSSPI information, following Bell's definition.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError

Member

Since plugging TPs into Bell's IP core likely isn't the most effective use of ports on their core switches/routers, I would not be too surprised if the overall cost for both "Case A" and "Case B" ended up being similar enough that they aren't worth creating different rates for.

If the difference is significant, that may cause its own share of problems with ISPs having to move their POPs with all the expenses this implies.

One bit of curiosity that arises from this: if "Case B" TPs' traffic has to go over Bell's Metro-Ethernet, how come 10GbE AHSSPIs are so problematic? AFAIK, Metro-Ethernet became popular long after 10GbE became standard for all but the smallest Ethernet WANs. I do not think there is any widely deployed Metro-Ethernet gear out there that does not fully support 10GbE and on which 10GbE is not at least twice as cost-effective (less than half the all-inclusive $/Gbps) as 1GbE ports.

So it really boggles the mind how getting 10GbE out of Bell seems so complicated. Rogers and Videotron hardly needed to get asked twice before making it so before the CRTC even asked about it.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by InvalidError:

So it really boggles the mind how getting 10GbE out of Bell seems so complicated.

For Royal Bank or GM, sure, no problem - 10GigE....how many would you like? Is installation next Wednesday ok?

Bell just doesn't want to make it easy for an indie to get 10GigE..
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

Primus asks the Commission to continue the AHSSPI process as there are more unanswered questions, and lists them.
resa1983

1 edit

resa1983

Premium Member

Modem certification Interrogatory answers.

Telus, Telus, Cable, CNOC, CNOC..

Still to convert:
Bell x7 DOCs
MTS Allstream x3 DOCs
resa1983

resa1983

Premium Member

The rest of the responses.

2 from MTS Allstream, 7 from Bell.

Note #6, they call dslr a blog. o.O
resa1983

resa1983

Premium Member

Sasktel.

Some ### going on, but not as much as Bell.

Previously
@videotron.ca

Previously to resa1983

Anon

to resa1983
said by resa1983:

Note #6, they call dslr a blog. o.O

Back around 2007 (or maybe it was 2006) and prior to that, Bell Canada's website referred to DSLr as a "Mega-Forum" and they used to link back to them for Q&A and help on DSL and set-ups.

Then around 2007 (or was it 2008) they removed it and made ref to this site as a blog in internal memo's, training doc's and the monkey scripts.

I'm surprised they don't refer to it today as, the site with some text.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to resa1983

MVM

to resa1983
How come not a single person throughout this entire process has pointed out that the Sagemcom modems don't work? That they're limited to 33 Mbps in passthrough mode? And while the sync-no-surf issue was mentioned in early filings, nobody has said a peep about it since, or about how Bell's firmware update did nothing to resolve any of the problems.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

There was no ability to do so - process ended (we thought) before tuey pushed the firmware.

I did reference the lack of speed you tested, in my submission..

Only now will we be able to bring up these additional comments.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

The whole idea that an uncertified VDSL2 modem would cause harm to their network is ludicrous. Someone's gotta call them out on this.

The only issue is Stinger compatbility. Nothing else really.

It either syncs or it doesn't.

This isn't cable internet.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError

Member

said by HiVolt:

The whole idea that an uncertified VDSL2 modem would cause harm to their network is ludicrous.

Crosstalk from an out-of-spec modems can certainly interfere with services on other pairs. As Bell said though, this level-1 certification is covered by Industry Canada, not Bell. So Bell-bashing about certification is not going to make level-1 go away.

If crosstalk was insignificant to the point it could be ignored, benefits from vectoring which attempts to mitigate the predictable and correctable parts of FEXT/NEXT by analyzing correlation between pairs and skew signals to reduce net crosstalk would not be worth the effort. I know Bell has not enabled vectoring on their network yet but the feature's very existence on modern DSLAMs still proves that crosstalk is a significant challenge on VDSL2.

As far as level-2 certification goes, Bell did not seem particularly interested in managing such a programme. They basically said you can use any modem at your own risk and expense as long as it has level-1 certification, just don't come crying if you get swapped between IKNS and 7330 or vice-versa if your modem only supports one.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

1 edit

resa1983

Premium Member

Comments to Interrogatories for modem issues due today.

My .zip, Bell's response, CNOC's response, JF's response, MTS Allstream

I didn't bother to pdf the 3 .docx files Bell sent to the Optional Upstream Speeds, as literally everything was filed in confidence, and all the pages stated was it was all filed in confidence.

Haven't read any just yet, gonna start that now.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm

Anon

Lots of zingers in your filings, Resa. Big submission. Plan on sleeping tonight now that it's done?

For those to lazy to read the zip file above, here are some of the zingers that I have to raise a glass (coffee cup) to.

The lovely Ms. (Mrs?) Murphy wrote:

Zing! The fact that you cannot use any standard VDSL2 modem on a Stinger remote, as it refuses to sync, should be proof enough that they do not meet ‘industry standards’.

Zing! The Bell Companies did a disservice to their retail customers, shareholders and GAS providers by installing obsolete technology, and aesthetics are no excuse for this.

Zing! I find it very hard to believe that Bell Companies couldn’t find the average remaining life expectancy of their Stingers, considering the accounting practices required for a publicly traded company, as well as the lengthy equipment logs and maintenance logs required for proper maintenance of such a large network. I feel it is more likely that if the Bell Companies were to release these numbers to the Commission as requested, the answer would make CNOC’s point for them that it is time to replace these Stingers.

Zing! Despite the above comments, it has come to my attention that unless you can provide a Sagemcom 2864 F@ST (“Sagemcom”) serial number during signup, the Bell Companies will refuse the wholesale installation. This means there is no option of BringYourOwnModem (“BYOM”) for wholesale, forcing users to purchase or rent the (vastly) flawed Sagemcoms. If the user is on a 7330 or 7330 VSEMD, and has their own VDSL2 compliant modem, they are forced to rent or purchase a Sagemcom to obtain service even if that modem never leaves the box.

Then she gets into Rogers cable and gives them a run for their money. Someone at Rogers is likely reaching for the Malox.

Damn Resa, kudos to you.

Will give the others a fast read likely later on or tomorrow.

Good job.
hm

hm to resa1983

Anon

to resa1983
JF did a great submission as well, and as usual he has a zinger in there within the first few para's.

Can't read the MTS reply. Is it in some weird format? Sometimes what happens on DSLr is if the file name is too long the site just chops off the file name and the file extension... yup it the file name length, just checked. Maybe (if you want, or if a mod does it) just shorten the file name on the MTS filing to just MTS.pDf and it will open for people. Now you know
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by hm :

Can't read the MTS reply. Is it in some weird format? Sometimes what happens on DSLr is if the file name is too long the site just chops off the file name and the file extension... yup it the file name length, just checked. Maybe (if you want, or if a mod does it) just shorten the file name on the MTS filing to just MTS.pDf and it will open for people. Now you know

Or just choose the .pdf reader on your system as the app to use when opening the file for read-access. That works just fine even if there is no .pdf at the end of the filename. The file's internal headers clearly are intact and identify the document as a .pdf to any app that can open a pdf.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

1 recommendation

resa1983 to hm

Premium Member

to hm
Reuploaded MTS's so you all can view it.

I still haven't read through them all yet.. After calling the CRTC to get a new GC-key (my original corrupted back in 2012, and I never got it fixed), creating a new account, trying to figure out how the hell to submit via the GC-key as the process showed closed, sending the email, then sending it again cuz the .zip didn't attach the first time - herp derp -, I played some D3 to calm my jittery nerves, put my munchkin to bed, and have been playing more D3..

As for 'my' submission, it's been a work in process since Friday night, with Ares45 editing/adding/removing/making pretty/ripping apart everything I wrote. lol. My writing is usually horrible.

The 2nd & 4th zingers are from Ares45.
I personally like his reference to faulty lampposts myself.

I tried to talk to a bunch of people prior to filing - seeing what issues the USERS wanted brought up and fixed, as well as talking to various ISPs employees to get some anonymous info. So thank you to everyone who took the time to talk to me.

EDIT: Thank you again to everyone who answered my 'dumb' questions. I've learned a lot about DSL during this process that I now want to forget. lol

hm
@videotron.ca

hm

Anon

well then, +1 to Ares45!

In the Bell filing, Bell states the 6-meg SNR bug is no issue, yet in the same breath failed to mention that the defect also causes a lower upstream. This issue is a few years old.

Bell basically says to CNOC members, hire more people to deal with people calling in. No problem.

heh

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

Click for full size
said by hm :

In the Bell filing, Bell states the 6-meg SNR bug is no issue, yet in the same breath failed to mention that the defect also causes a lower upstream. This issue is a few years old.

Fixed? hardly. This is a 16meg line and the modem attached syncs between 736-766k on the upstream.

Yes I know this is an old modem (SpeedStream 6520), but I have tested it on a line fed by a Globespan remote as well as a 7330 remote in ADSL2+ modem and it syncs perfectly fine at 1088 up.

Remember, Bell used to provide these, during the time when they were deploying the Stingers.

It still has the Fastpath/Interleave reporting bug, as shown in the modem log, even though the line is actually set for fastpath.

0000-00-00 00:00:54 E |DSL |Link up 1 US 766 DS 16315 (INTL:ADSL2+) --- Last bit is Interleave mode

hm
@videotron.ca

hm

Anon

yeah I recall this one well when it started. In this filing Bell said they have no issue with people calling in, nor should the iisps, but bell failed to tell the CRTC that the drones who answer the phone ignore the issue. Lie to people and just get people off the phone. You call in with this bug and they want you to reboot the modem, tell you it's your windows registry and whatever else. The drones don't look at the line stats or tell people anything. Bell is so fulla shit. This leaves the iisps, who have tech-savvy users, on the hook for the manpower and so forth.

Bell also goes on to state that an actual SNR of 6 is ok. No problem if that value is actually 6.

Their filing is a lie. Nor does it reflect what Bell actually does.

In addition, a person can't trouble-shoot their line issues (ie a jumping SNR, or intermittent line issue). Makes it virtually impossible. So bell also failed to address this in their filing.

You can't wait on hold for an hour with an iisp to verify an intermittent. You have to catch this right as the issue is going on and capture it. By the time you get off hold and whatever else, the intermittent issue usually stops. Bell knows this.

So what Bell is saying, Hey, pay us the maintenance fee to go to someones house multi-times even though an intermittent issue will never be found since these are usually humidity, weather, time-of-day, or temperature related issues. Most often happens starting around October to December and then again in spring.

But Bell believes none of these issues exist on their decrepit lines and people should just pay them.

Acanac had a good write up on it a few years back. I don't recall if it was the acanac forum here or their own forum. I think they had a list of modems going at the time w/ chipsets that got this bug or didn't. I don't recall if more than one chipset was affected.