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bha

@ugohost.com

NID in new construction cottage

Building a cottage and it's in a relatively busy little town. Think small town rather than remote location. People walking by regularly, but dead in the winter with maybe a car driving by every hour or two in the winter.

I have a small wiring room in the new cottage where everything will go (audio equipment, home automation, network router, electrical panel, etc.)

I will have ONLY service for DSL -- I use VoIP and will be using that for home phone. So going dry loop.

Question: Can I ask Bell to install the NID (or terminate the service if there is no NID) inside my wiring room?

My reasons for this are:
-I have a security camera system and want to make sure nobody can open the NID and disconnect my Internet access before breaking in. **THIS IS MY MAIN REASON**
-I have never in 20 years ever had Bell come out and fix my phone or DSL.. so if something goes wrong I can drive 1hr to the cottage or have a neighbour let them in. I have a coded keypad deadbolt, so I can just give Bell the code if they need to send a tech.
-It looks cleaner.. we can always put it on a hidden side of the house, but I'd rather not have anything outside.

What do I need to do in advance as I'm wiring the cottage this weekend? The wiring room is on the diagonally opposite corner of the cottage from where the phone pole is... do I need to wire from the wiring room, outside the cottage, and over to the side where the pole is? Or do I just tell them which side and they have to install it there? I don't want them to put a NID on the front visible side!

If they are installing a NID on the outside of the wiring room do I need to run a few CAT5 from there into the wiring room? So I can extend from the NID to my inside wiring. Or does Bell do that also? I don't mind paying them the extra fee to put a jack in the wiring room, then I can just plug my DSL router into that.

Note that the ground is mostly sand so it's easy to spade bury a line. I'd rather they just spade buried a line then came in via conduit into the electrical room.. is that possible?

Thanks!

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
If you dig a trench and install conduit according to code (depth, warning tape, anti-shovel protection, then there shouldn't be an issue. You could even ask the Bell installer (if you can find him a few days in advance) to drop wire off and you can trench from the pole to the house & pull the wire first. Then all he has to do is terminate the wire at the pole & NID.

As far as the NID location goes, if he wont let you install it inside the equipment room, tell him you want it installed a a location which is several feet past where you really want it. That will give you slack cable to reinstall it through the wall where you want it.

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON

1 edit

said by MaynardKrebs See Profile
As far as the NID location goes, if he wont let you install it inside the equipment room, tell him you want it installed a a location which is several feet past where you really want it. That will give you slack cable to reinstall it through the wall where you want it.

This is what a friend of mine did (don't believe he requested the final location though), I on the other hand had no issue getting the installer to put the box up high enough a ladder was required.

urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to bha
Wow your covering a lot of ground.

I'll address your last question

The existing lines for the area are aerial so Bell won't dig you a line in just because you want it buried. Even if you have a conduit, there is no guarantee and obligation for bell to pull that wire in the conduit if the area is fed with aerial services. So I would suggest that if you do want it buried, and your serviced from an aerial terminal, that you dig the wire in to your nearest servicing terminal pole yourself ahead of time. As for obtaining Buried Service Wire, I remember back in the day I'd have a work order to deliver a coil of BSW for a customer who requests it during construction of a house - just like in the situation you have now. I haven't had one of these orders in a LONG LONG time so I'm not sure if Bell is still doing this.

You might be best off flagging down a Bell guy and quickly explain the situation to him, and ask him if he has enough BSW that he can cut off the length you need and give you the wire.

Get the conduit/bsw in place before your dryloop install date. Keep a long enough loop at the pole end so that the tech can clip it UP the pole and connect it to the terminal. And if you really want to get fancy install enough conduit at the pole end to make sure a ladder is required to reach the end of the conduit where the wire comes out so someone cant just walk to the pole with cutters and snip the wire at the pole side.

At the house end, if you bring that conduit or BSW in to the wiring room directly, the tech very likely wont argue with you over it at that point. Just keep in mind he will need the main hydro panels braided ground wire, or water pipe, to ground the NID to.
--
Opinions and ideas expressed in my post are my own and in no way represent those of Bell Canada Enterprises, Bell Canada, Bell TV, Bell Internet, Bell Mobility, Bell Technical Solutions, Expertech, or any other partners under the BCE umbrella.

taraf

join:2011-05-07
Stittsville, ON
said by urbang33k:

Wow your covering a lot of ground.

I'll address your last question

The existing lines for the area are aerial so Bell won't dig you a line in just because you want it buried. Even if you have a conduit, there is no guarantee and obligation for bell to pull that wire in the conduit if the area is fed with aerial services. So I would suggest that if you do want it buried, and your serviced from an aerial terminal, that you dig the wire in to your nearest servicing terminal pole yourself ahead of time. As for obtaining Buried Service Wire, I remember back in the day I'd have a work order to deliver a coil of BSW for a customer who requests it during construction of a house - just like in the situation you have now. I haven't had one of these orders in a LONG LONG time so I'm not sure if Bell is still doing this.

You might be best off flagging down a Bell guy and quickly explain the situation to him, and ask him if he has enough BSW that he can cut off the length you need and give you the wire.

Get the conduit/bsw in place before your dryloop install date. Keep a long enough loop at the pole end so that the tech can clip it UP the pole and connect it to the terminal. And if you really want to get fancy install enough conduit at the pole end to make sure a ladder is required to reach the end of the conduit where the wire comes out so someone cant just walk to the pole with cutters and snip the wire at the pole side.

At the house end, if you bring that conduit or BSW in to the wiring room directly, the tech very likely wont argue with you over it at that point. Just keep in mind he will need the main hydro panels braided ground wire, or water pipe, to ground the NID to.

This. I'd also add that if it's really a concern, go with a cellular-connected/monitored alarm rather than one that uses the phone line, and set up a small server for the camera system to record to.

This way even if they do cut the Internet before breaking in, you'll still have the film, and the alarm can still signal a problem.


bha

@ugohost.com
Thanks for all of the useful help.. this is great info!

I should add something.. the old cottage had a buried line, not aerial. When I had the roof redone 10 years ago, I had a Bell guy living across the street. He connected some BSW to the pole and left it spooled up at the bottom of the pole for me. I spade buried it (no conduit or anything else) and he connected it to the cottage for me.

Only problem is (other than it's just a piece of wire buried and Bell may have a problem with that) it connected to the front of the cottage and my wiring room is 20ft back from there. So it won't be long enough.

I have an electrician working there right now.. he can do the pre-work for phone wiring if I tell him what to do.

Bell guys are pretty scarce in the area.. it will be very hard to flag one down as they are never around. It's a small town of a few hundred people.

What do I need to tell the electrician? I need a piece of conduit (liquidtight ok? Or is there a specific kind?) with BSW running through it (any specific spec or is there only one kind?)?

I will tell him to run the conduit and leave a few feet of wire on the cottage end. And on the pole end he should leave 25' so Bell can run it up the pole. Correct?

Thanks!


xbell

@cgocable.net
reply to bha
I get customers to call Bell during the build and request a roll of BSW. Run it from the pole to the equipment room and chances are the Bell tech will hook it up as it is easier than hanging a drop. Or you could hire a private tech like me to move it after Bell comes and put a false NID outside for them to cut the line to and have the cops show up during the break in.


Glen1
These Are The Good Ol' Days.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
kudos:8
That's funny.


xbell

@cgocable.net
said by Glen1:

That's funny.

Not if you're the burglar. I had a customer at a cottage who kept getting broken into and did this and the OPP caught them in the act.

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
reply to bha
@bha

Few tidbits for you,

Your electrician "can" get the wire needed, it will probably come at a premium as its not a normal stock item. (if they are willing to get it)
I worked at a local company and installed loads of cable/phone/data/etc. (we basically did everything between a simple phone jack to a 500A 600/347v three phase service)

If your going the Bell provide route have the electrician leave two (or more) pull lines in the pipe (tied of and labeled at both ends) this allows for easy install of the line and a spare pull just in case.

As for pipe, under ground "Big-O" is a very nice (~$50/100') chase for underground rated wires.

1/2" Schedule 40 PVC (~$8/10') running up the pole (use the grey one as the white is not uv protected and will break down)

Its a good idea to put the "Big-O" end caps on (~$5ea), and drill a hole in it big enough for the PVC to go through. They will keep as much earth out of the pipe as possible, saving trouble later if for some reason you need access to the pipe.

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
While i understand your issues, The entire Purpose of a NID is a demarcation point for bell They want it accessible outside of your home so they can Determine the issue is with In home wiring or not without having to go into the house. i do not think bell will jump on being assistive in this. to be honest.
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.


Bell guy

@bell.ca
reply to xbell
LOVE IT, a fake bid, install the fake nod with a dummy section of BSW with a scotch lock short and burry it. Connect it to your alarm system as an instant silent trip, then when burglar cuts the dummy BSW instant silent trip on the alarm. Even label the NID " ACME ALARM TELEPHONE INTERFACE "

urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to morisato
said by morisato:

While i understand your issues, The entire Purpose of a NID is a demarcation point for bell They want it accessible outside of your home so they can Determine the issue is with In home wiring or not without having to go into the house. i do not think bell will jump on being assistive in this. to be honest.

Actually, although a tech may raise an eyebrow at putting the nid inside on a single detached dwelling, He will also be accustomed to seeing them deliberately put inside in new construction of townhouses.

So there are situations where NIDS get placed inside due to construction practices and it's because of this, among other things, that average joe tech probably won't make an issue out of it.
--
Opinions and ideas expressed in my post are my own and in no way represent those of Bell Canada Enterprises, Bell Canada, Bell TV, Bell Internet, Bell Mobility, Bell Technical Solutions, Expertech, or any other partners under the BCE umbrella.

Bell guy

join:2013-03-29
K2s0j7
reply to Bell guy
OMG I hate my ipad for spelling...

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to urbang33k
said by urbang33k:

said by morisato:

While i understand your issues, The entire Purpose of a NID is a demarcation point for bell They want it accessible outside of your home so they can Determine the issue is with In home wiring or not without having to go into the house. i do not think bell will jump on being assistive in this. to be honest.

Actually, although a tech may raise an eyebrow at putting the nid inside on a single detached dwelling, He will also be accustomed to seeing them deliberately put inside in new construction of townhouses.

So there are situations where NIDS get placed inside due to construction practices and it's because of this, among other things, that average joe tech probably won't make an issue out of it.

This is a cottage and not a townhouse and usally in townhouses They go in the Garage Mostly due to the hydrobox and stack being bricked in with no space for a nid to go there.. even if u wanted to put it there.
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.

urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
said by morisato:

This is a cottage and not a townhouse and usally in townhouses They go in the Garage Mostly due to the hydrobox and stack being bricked in with no space for a nid to go there.. even if u wanted to put it there.

Well in my neck of the woods we get easily just as many basement nids as we do garage nids in townhouses.

My point is that nids do get placed inside in some situations and it's not as uncommon, in general, as some would think.

What is uncommon is the placement of the nid inside in a single detached dwelling, like this cottage. that's not to say it doesn't happen.
--
Opinions and ideas expressed in my post are my own and in no way represent those of Bell Canada Enterprises, Bell Canada, Bell TV, Bell Internet, Bell Mobility, Bell Technical Solutions, Expertech, or any other partners under the BCE umbrella.

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
said by urbang33k:

What is uncommon is the placement of the nid inside in a single detached dwelling, like this cottage. that's not to say it doesn't happen.

But it's not in the cottage, its in a utility room attached to the cottage that Bell will have the code for


bha

@ugohost.com
Yes, it is inside the cottage.. sorry, should have clarified that.

In the back room of the cottage is my 'utility room'. There is no separate entrance to that room. The NID would be entirely within the structure and you'd need the front door code to get access to it.

However, as I mentioned, I don't really care.... it is rare for something to go wrong, and if it does, I can get my neighbour to open my door and check for dialtone on my phone. If there is no dialtone, I can call Bell and have them come out to look at it.

When they arrive, the neighbour can let them inside if necessary.

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
It might happen but as you might well know bell techs aren;t exactly known for trying to go above the norm when working p:) so goodluck and let us know how it turns out!
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

2 edits
reply to bha
Since you are just in the process of building the cottage, why not just run the conduit from the pole straight into the utility room - under the footing or thru the foundation before you pour the concrete?

When you run the Schedule 40 up the pole, cover it over with a 10' to 12' length of 3"x3" galvanized angle iron extending 12" into the ground. Use bolts to fasten the angle iron to the pole. This will give your cable huge amounts of impact protection (weed wackers, cars/trucks, lawn mowers) and make it really hard for anyone to cut the cable in the pole riser. 20 seconds with a handheld hacksaw gets through a Schedule 40 pipe - not so with a 3x3 angle iron.

You could also run your dummy cable (as suggested by EXBELLGUY above) inside the riser to trip the alarm and a local siren/strobe light if the conduit was cut. With a relay, you could then automatically flip on the perimeter floodlights and then have the motion tracking cameras guide the machine guns

p.s. - Forgot to mention that once you've bolted the angle to the pole, use an angle grinder to round-off the bolt heads so they can't be taken out with a ratchet or crescent wrench. At my weekend place, we ran the angle iron up to the same height as the phone/cable company laterals and cut down any nearby trees which could be used to climb that high.

urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
said by MaynardKrebs:

Since you are just in the process of building the cottage, why not just run the conduit from the pole straight into the utility room - under the footing or thru the foundation before you pour the concrete?

When you run the Schedule 40 up the pole, cover it over with a 10' to 12' length of 3"x3" galvanized angle iron extending 12" into the ground. Use bolts to fasten the angle iron to the pole. This will give your cable huge amounts of impact protection (weed wackers, cars/trucks, lawn mowers) and make it really hard for anyone to cut the cable in the pole riser. 20 seconds with a handheld hacksaw gets through a Schedule 40 pipe - not so with a 3x3 angle iron.

You could also run your dummy cable (as suggested by EXBELLGUY above) inside the riser to trip the alarm and a local siren/strobe light if the conduit was cut. With a relay, you could then automatically flip on the perimeter floodlights and then have the motion tracking cameras guide the machine guns

p.s. - Forgot to mention that once you've bolted the angle to the pole, use an angle grinder to round-off the bolt heads so they can't be taken out with a ratchet or crescent wrench. At my weekend place, we ran the angle iron up to the same height as the phone/cable company laterals and cut down any nearby trees which could be used to climb that high.

That's awesome. LOL
--
Opinions and ideas expressed in my post are my own and in no way represent those of Bell Canada Enterprises, Bell Canada, Bell TV, Bell Internet, Bell Mobility, Bell Technical Solutions, Expertech, or any other partners under the BCE umbrella.