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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to GeorgeBurger

Re: VMedia Launches

Well, the sample shows some pretty nasty detail loss in the first shot where the camera pulls back from the forest, but it's not so bad after that. The rain in the last shot isn't great, a lot of detail is blurred out.

I think the sample demonstrates you can get away with 2Mbps 720p, but it's not going to be any sort of "hifi" experience.

EDIT: This will look worse than cable, cable is doing much higher bitrate 1080p. Even MPEG-2 does a good enough job when it has 14x the bitrate.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Well, cable around here in Cogecoland certainly isn't doing any 1080p, let alone anything high bit rate. I suspect Rogers might be doing something like that for their VOD, but it is exceedingly doubtful that they're doing it for for every single one of their channels.

Nothing beats off-air full bitrate ATSC straight from an American network feed. The quality is instantly recognizable and blows away anything even off-air Canadian television delivers, let alone BDUs. Quite simply, it's like looking at a photograph and makes it difficult to watch anything off even Shaw Direct which has one of the better HD PQs out there for a BDU. Still, I would take the detail loss with 2Mbit/s H.264 over the incessant macroblocking that occurs with typical BDU transmissions MPEG2 high-def content any day. "Typical" cable is not 28Mbit/s, no bloody way.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to GeorgeBurger

All the audiovisual details on resolutions and compression can be seen here:

»illicotech.com/NumMtl.html

It's all MPEG-2.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

I saw a few that were 17, none that were 24. But yeah, those are some impressive bitrates. I believe Rogers maxes out at 8 or so at the best of times and Bell is doing 4-7 third-generation 720p on their MPEG2 channels. They used to be higher until they started cramming more channels into QAMs and transponders in the last few years.


darrylr

join:2003-02-10
Nepean, ON

Rogers is over 10. Here are some recent numbers...

»www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpos···count=98

Channel / Bitrate (mbps)

497 - Animal - 15
498 - Sci - 14
501 - SN1 - 15
506 - TSN - 19
514 - CBC - 16
525 - PBS - 10
528 - CBSW - 12
532 - PBSW - 14
534 - DW - 14
535 - NG - 12
550 - TMN - 14
563 - TCM - 10
574 - Discovery - 15
583 - CityW - 15
586 - TWN - 11

I have a hard time believing 2Mb/sec is going to look very good but to each their own.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

For what it's worth, 10 still looks like shit in MPEG2.



TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to GeorgeBurger

Has George confirmed the bitrate yet? All he said was 2Meg but he never said if that's for just SD or everything.

While 2Meg may be passable (you'd be surprised just how many people settle for really shitty quality pirated stuff), it certainly isn't a quality level I'd want to pay for.

1080p stuff should start off at minimum 8mb/s with H.264 imo, NetFlix's 5.8Mb/s is getting there but not really enough. The issue is the surprising number of people that still stuck on 5/6Mbps DSL.

George, the DSL 6 packaged should not be offered period with IPTV service, you're just asking for trouble. That or have a way to restrict HD if someone is only on 6Mbps.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by TypeS:

Has George confirmed the bitrate yet? All he said was 2Meg but he never said if that's for just SD or everything.

Could be minimum VBR based on available line bandwidth, too.

Fibe TV is 7Mbit/s, no?


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to GeorgeBurger

Well, for whatever reason most stuff on Videotron looks pretty bad. People generally agree that Bell is better quality, both on ExpessVu and Fibe.

Fibe is probably VC-1, though, which is similar to h.264. It has an in-loop deblocker. MPEG-2 doesn't, and so h.264 doesn't suffer from macroblocking artifacts (that part of the picture just gets less and less detailed). I think that even if you just took MPEG-2 and added an in-loop deblocker you'd see a pretty big improvement there, but of course that wouldn't be MPEG-2 anymore, and nothing would decode it.

Videotron originally promised when they launched digital HD cable that they'd only put two HD channels per QAM, giving them something like 19 Mbps each, but that idea went down the crapper due to the spectrum crunch (they still have lots of analog channels and haven't fully migrated to SDV), so now they do three.

Also of note is the list where the entire cable spectrum from 57 to 861 Mhz is broken down:

»illicotech.com/NumMtlRes.html

The west island (where my parents live) would be MGM-Montreal-Ouest, I think, while all of downtown Montreal where I live would be Montreal-A. MGM stands for, translated, "Modernization of Greater Montreal", the areas that have moved to FTTN. That apparently bought then another 12 QAMs by pushing from 789MHz to 860 MHz, and that in turn was enough for 8-channel bonded DOCSIS 3.0 (up to 200Mbps), while those of us downtown are stuck on 4-channel bonding at 60 meg.

EDIT: Also, huh, apparently we now have a CityTV Montreal as of a few months ago.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Yeah, the lack of macroblocking on MPEG4-related codecs is what makes a big difference. Even a "lower quality" stream is visually easier to deal with due to the lack of the macroblocking.

I believe Fibe TV is VC-1. Shaw Direct and Bell TV use H.264 for what isn't MPEG2.



Shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

Well, for whatever reason most stuff on Videotron looks pretty bad. People generally agree that Bell is better quality, both on ExpessVu and Fibe.

That's about right. Everyone I know says Bell express vu is the better of the two. It's also the consensus of the people in the videotron forum.

Fibe? Noe clue. I know no one with it. Nor anyone that would take it. Everyone I know (families) moved TV to videotron due to bundle price, and phone as well since it's free tron-tron LD.

Bell lost Quebec a good 5 years ago in everything, except maybe TV. But that was because everyone in Quebec pirated Bell TV up to about 7 years ago. Their set-up was basically free for everyone. Even I had free bell sat. Had a dish = free TV. Once they fixed that though, price wasn't worth it.

Anyhow, on topic with Vmedia, 25$ isn't bad for young people. It's affordable. Yeah likely SD but who cares at the price and when you need to save a buck.

Someone above said they pumped about 10K in a home system and bitched about the sound quality Vmedia offers.

Well... DUH. This isn't aimed at you. You aren't that starving student, or very poor family. Got 10 grand to waste on that then you go with the highest quality and highest priced service. Let's be realistic here.

Can't go wrong with the 25$ package.

But for the Qc market (in a bundle), their basic-plus is nothing to be desired *in Quebec*.

GeorgeBurger

join:2011-12-30
kudos:2
reply to TypeS

Hi TypeS sorry about the delay in responding but been really swamped with pre- and post-launch stuff. We are using HLS adaptive streaming with H.264 codec & custom optimization algorithms which allow us to deliver HD quality with an average (not a constant) bitrate of 2 Mbps. Bitrates range between 1 and 2 Mbps for SD and between 1.5 and 2.5 Mbps for 720p HD. Hope that helps. The picture looks terrific, if I do say so myself.



JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:9
reply to GeorgeBurger

What's your ETA for launch in Ottawa? And is it possible to use your service with another ISP?


GeorgeBurger

join:2011-12-30
kudos:2

said by JCohen:

What's your ETA for launch in Ottawa? And is it possible to use your service with another ISP?

If all goes well we are hoping no later than June. And yes you can but it has to be an ISP we have a transmission arrangement with. Who are you with?

MTOTech

join:2001-12-15
North Bay, ON
reply to GeorgeBurger

I go live in North Bay on April 11th. I'll let you know how it goes! I'm subscribing to the 35Mbs Cable service.



JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:9
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to GeorgeBurger

said by GeorgeBurger:

said by JCohen:

What's your ETA for launch in Ottawa? And is it possible to use your service with another ISP?

If all goes well we are hoping no later than June. And yes you can but it has to be an ISP we have a transmission arrangement with. Who are you with?

I'm currently with Start.

koreyb
Open the Canadian Market NOW

join:2005-01-08
East York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to GeorgeBurger

There's a few things that I think Vmedia should be looking at. Provide only the ABSOLUTE BASIC PACKAGE that they are legally required to have. Everything else you should be able to do al-la-carte. I also feel the requirement to only use your ISP isn't exactly the point of IPTV. It should be like Voip, where it doesn't matter. I realistically would like to jump over, but being forced to use a different ISP, and being forced to take/pay for channels I don't want, just looses it's appeal to me. The LOCALS are CTV, CTV2, Global, CBC, TVO, CHCH, etc I can see being on a basic package, but Vision, french channels, (or english if you only speak french) etc etc don't make sense. Not worth the change.



travisc

join:2001-11-09
Uxbridge, ON
reply to GeorgeBurger

Vision is required to be on basic, as are many other channels. It's not vmedia's fault or decision to make. As for the rest of the stuff being a la carte, dream on. Much of that is controlled by the channels and the contracts you have to sign.


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to koreyb

said by koreyb:

I also feel the requirement to only use your ISP isn't exactly the point of IPTV. It should be like Voip, where it doesn't matter.

They are licensed as a traditional BDU, and therefore must only offer the service on a closed network. Their license limits their geographic region as well, so open access over the public Internet isn't an option.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to travisc

said by travisc:

Much of that is controlled by the channels and the contracts you have to sign.

From what I understand, there is only one channel in Canada that prevents it from being purchased a-la-carte, and that's Fox News. Everything else can, and that's generally the way they do things in Quebec as the norm.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by Gone:

From what I understand, there is only one channel in Canada that prevents it from being purchased a-la-carte, and that's Fox News. Everything else can, and that's generally the way they do things in Quebec as the norm.

You know... I was just looking to see if that was true and I don't even notice Fox News being offered. Or I missed it when looking. It's not something we would take anyhow, but I never noticed that before. What do they bundle it with?

Another thing with the a-la-carte at videotron is they allow you to switch channels any time you want at no cost. So for example, if I want to get rid of Sun News today for al jazeera, it's just a phone call. Or the kids get fed up of one of their 6 much music stations and want a toon station, it's a phone call. So you aren't stuck, or gouged.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

The reason Fox News was weird like that is because the Americans who were involved in negotiating Canadian carriage were operating on the American model of bundled channels and were completely oblivious to the fact we allow a-la-carte selections here and either refused to omitted the ability for them to be selected by customers that way as part of the carriage agreement.

Kind of ironic in so many ways if you ask me.



travisc

join:2001-11-09
Uxbridge, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

From what I understand, there is only one channel in Canada that prevents it from being purchased a-la-carte, and that's Fox News. Everything else can, and that's generally the way they do things in Quebec as the norm.

Unless things have changed significantly in the last two years, I can state from having seen many contracts with my own eyes that you're incorrect. I can't speak for why Quebec is different, but elsewhere, in many cases it's the channels protecting themselves by forcing packaged carriage.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by travisc:

said by Gone:

From what I understand, there is only one channel in Canada that prevents it from being purchased a-la-carte, and that's Fox News. Everything else can, and that's generally the way they do things in Quebec as the norm.

Unless things have changed significantly in the last two years, I can state from having seen many contracts with my own eyes that you're incorrect. I can't speak for why Quebec is different, but elsewhere, in many cases it's the channels protecting themselves by forcing packaged carriage.

So what are you saying?

The U.S. Mega-Media dealt only Quebec a different and better deal just because?

Or the Canadian Media hoarders treat Quebec differently because they can't milk the predominately french population as much as English Ontario with their english channels?

I wonder if George knows why it appears to be different in Qc than in Ontario?


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to travisc

said by travisc:

Unless things have changed significantly in the last two years, I can state from having seen many contracts with my own eyes that you're incorrect. I can't speak for why Quebec is different, but elsewhere, in many cases it's the channels protecting themselves by forcing packaged carriage.

It is not uncommon for the channel owners to force bundling on the DBU side, e.g. if you carry Sportsnet One, Rogers also requires that you carry this, and that, and this and to pay for them. Shaw may require you to carry H2 and TVTropolis if you're carrying History HD or whatever else. Still from what I gather, they do not force a BDU to bundle those channels to customers and that any bundling is a BDU's own business decision themselves. Either way, fair enough. I was told what I was told by people I know up at Cogeco, and verified by a good friend who works on the regulatory side of things who has a bit of understanding of how the stuff works. Not forcing bundling on customers may have been specific to digital channels, as I know what are or used to be analog carriage channels are an entirely different beast all together.

That, or it's just specific to the contracts they worked out with you guys

darrylr

join:2003-02-10
Nepean, ON

So can anyone with this service who has a large screen (50") and has experience watching Blu-ray movies comment on the quality of the HD channel images with VMedia? Also it would be nice to mention screen size and viewing distance.

Maybe a comparison to Super HD netflix would be useful as well.



travisc

join:2001-11-09
Uxbridge, ON
reply to GeorgeBurger

Gone, you're absolutely right that the newer digital channels have more flexibility to offer on an a la carte basis. But I suspect those still don't draw the lion's share of the viewing like the old analog channels do.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by travisc:

Gone, you're absolutely right that the newer digital channels have more flexibility to offer on an a la carte basis. But I suspect those still don't draw the lion's share of the viewing like the old analog channels do.

Indeed, and in the case of Fox News it was a digital channel from the very beginning, so the whole idea of requiring the channel to be bundled was a major fumble on their part compared to the other foreign channels and the Canadian Category As and Bs.


bbbc

join:2001-10-02
NorthAmerica
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to GeorgeBurger

Par for the course, everyone is crowing about Ontario and Quebec. Ever indie IPTV offering seems to be in the same neck of the woods. George what about Alberta and British Columbia?

--
Consumerist.com | Consumers Union



ekster
Hi there
Premium
join:2010-07-16
Lachine, QC
kudos:3
Reviews:
·FreePhoneLine

I think everyone usually starts off in these two provinces because of the population. Quebec and Ontario represents 2/3rds of Canada... with Greater Montreal and Greater Toronto areas alone containing all of the BC and AB population (if not more.)

So with PQ and ON being a lot less of a risk, everyone would rather start up here.