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34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

1 edit
reply to TypeS

Re: VMedia IPTV is Teksavvy planning on participating?

said by TypeS:

That is my thinking too brad, although services like NetFlix, iTunes and Hulu seems to get by just fine going over the public internet.

Not true and same goes for VoIP. Without proper QoS on the connection and IPTV/VoIP will start cutting out (VoIP) or buffering (IPTV) if you start downloading and don't have a large amount of excess capacity on your connection. No matter what I do with my Internet connection my cable / sat or POTS phone line will not experience such issues and the avg joe doesn't care about excuses. It has to just work. That is the case for services provided by Bell / Telus for example. With an OTT service not having the ISP involved that is not the case.

said by TypeS:

But peering/partner with an ISP can be beneficial too.

Peering can be beneficial to lower the cost of delivery and to ensure proper QoS end to end. The issue is even more so important with broadcast TV vs watching pre-recorded content in a VoD style service like Netflix.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
I agree the average joe will not what hear any reasons for poor performance caused by loss of quality through the internet.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to El Quintron
You can't buffer IPTV. Not in the way you think of a video buffer, anyhow. It's live video. Netflix isn't. If your IPTV stream suffers some momentary issue, it can't buffer to catch up, it has to drop frames, because it's live, there's no future content available to buffer unless your IPTV STB is a delorean.

Netflix and IPTV have pretty much nothing in common, people should stop making that comparison. Different regulation, different licensing, different infrastructure, different equipment/hardware (a few one-time encodes versus dedicated hardware decoders for every channel 24/7), different kind of video compression (offline non-fault-tolerant VBR versus live fault-tolerant CBR), different network protocols (unicast TCP versus multicast UDP), different everything. The only thing they have in common is that they both send moving pictures over a network, but that's like comparing BitTorrent to rabbit ear antennas.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Perhaps thats The problem Guzpas Maybe someone needs to make there IPTV solution a Little More Like Netflix. and a Little less like current iptv solutions.
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

You can't buffer IPTV. Not in the way you think of a video buffer, anyhow. It's live video. Netflix isn't. If your IPTV stream suffers some momentary issue, it can't buffer to catch up, it has to drop frames, because it's live, there's no future content available to buffer unless your IPTV STB is a delorean.

I was referring to Netflix when I said that.

said by Guspaz:

Netflix and IPTV have pretty much nothing in common, people should stop making that comparison. Different regulation, different licensing, different infrastructure, different equipment/hardware (a few one-time encodes versus dedicated hardware decoders for every channel 24/7), different kind of video compression (offline non-fault-tolerant VBR versus live fault-tolerant CBR), different network protocols (unicast TCP versus multicast UDP), different everything. The only thing they have in common is that they both send moving pictures over a network, but that's like comparing BitTorrent to rabbit ear antennas.

Except even you have referred to Netflix as IPTV in a vague manner in other threads. I very much know they're completely different.

As usual you blabber on and danced around the issue.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

1 edit
reply to Guspaz
No one was comparing IPTV to NetFlix in terms to delivery and content, just it is an example of high bitrate streaming service that works most of the time without hiccups.

Although IPTV is different beast as we all agree I believe, it needs to have hiccups next to never, and therefore it going over the public internet would be a very bad idea.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to 34764170
You guys understand the difference, sure, but some other people around here (and by "here" I'm generalizing all vmedia-related threads) clearly don't... The whole "vmedia is overpriced because Netflix is $8" argument is silly.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to TypeS
said by TypeS:

No one was comparing IPTV to NetFlix in terms to delivery and content, just it is an example of high bitrate streaming service that works most of the time without hiccups.

Although IPTV is different beast as we all agree I believe, it needs to have hiccups next never, and therefor it going over the public internet would be a very bad idea.

Netflix is sometimes referred to as IPTV because it comes in over an IP network. Rogers / Comcast are now delivering VOD services over a hybrid QAM/IP setup and call it IPTV. But what is *usually* meant by IPTV is actual broadcast TV a la Bell FibeTV / Telus Optik TV / AT&T U-Verse.

Does that make it crystal clear?


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Guspaz
Yeah I hear ya, that En Enfer fellow in the Canadian Broadband forums is being quite obtuse. He believes IPTV is a parralel service to NetFlix and should be as cheap.

said by 34764170:


Netflix is sometimes referred to as IPTV because it comes in over an IP network. Rogers / Comcast are now delivering VOD services over a hybrid QAM/IP setup and call it IPTV. But what is *usually* meant by IPTV is actual broadcast TV a la Bell FibeTV / Telus Optik TV / AT&T U-Verse.

Does that make it crystal clear?

I think I was pretty clear on it before hand but thanks for the further clarification.

I've referred to NetFlix has VOD service in another thread and that it is worlds apart from a true IPTV service where you get local news, public channels, live sports events, airings of current TV show seasons (not waiting til the boxed sets are out) and anything else a TV subscription gives you that NetFlix does not. NetFlix is more of supplement.

Well actually, its a digital replacement to BlockBuster really. It's a digital library.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

1 edit
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

You guys understand the difference, sure, but some other people around here (and by "here" I'm generalizing all vmedia-related threads) clearly don't... The whole "vmedia is overpriced because Netflix is $8" argument is silly.

That's why I think it is ridiculous when some people seem to think Netflix can "replace" cable / sat.. it replaces some things people can watch with cable / sat but it is far from being a total replacement and in reality doesn't even come close. I can understand why some people might think it is good enough for their viewing habits but for plenty it is not.

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
reply to El Quintron
NBC, CTV, Fox, Discovery, Space

Those are the only channels I miss when I cut cable and went exclusively Netflix. (there was others but their basically all reality tv crap now)

CTV, Space and Discovery work out well as their shows are hosted on their sites. (most of them)
NBC and Fox though won't let Canadians watch (tried a few free unblockers but videos buffered poorly)

I'd love some form of IPTV or VOD that allowed me to choose only the channels I wanted. Why get 20+ when I don't care what is on the others.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
said by ShetiPhian:

NBC, CTV, Fox, Discovery, Space

Those are the only channels I miss when I cut cable and went exclusively Netflix. (there was others but their basically all reality tv crap now)

CTV, Space and Discovery work out well as their shows are hosted on their sites. (most of them)
NBC and Fox though won't let Canadians watch (tried a few free unblockers but videos buffered poorly)

I'd love some form of IPTV or VOD that allowed me to choose only the channels I wanted. Why get 20+ when I don't care what is on the others.

Probably the best you will see (until the Rules are changed) is apparently what Videotron has done in Quebec. They have a Skinny Basic where you it's literally only the channels that the CRTC has mandated be sold to every TV subscriber before they can order additional ones. Although I am unable to find reference to it on Videotron's site. Maybe Guspaz can fill in the exact details here. After that a TV provider could do a-la-carte, except in some situations some channels are bundled together with one or few others forcibly by the network selling them. Like the Movie Network, I don't think you can get any of those separately.

kmoed

join:2011-01-31
Toronto, ON
reply to TypeS
sigh..
"Basic is defined by a regulatory body"
And there is the problem.

Continuing to justify being ripped off, from Bell, Rogers, or any new provider coming along, Just because they have a mandate from the CRTC to do so, is ridiculous.

As long as there is no REAL option out of the forced cable package, we will never truly see competition in the market in Canada.

If more voiced their opinion on it, maybe it would change? Maybe that would better than discussing the merits of a new way to have your wallet emptied due to "Government Regulations"

OTA + Online services at this point, is the only real alternative, Although limited to most.

stevey_frac

join:2009-12-09
Cambridge, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

You can't buffer IPTV. Not in the way you think of a video buffer, anyhow. It's live video. Netflix isn't. If your IPTV stream suffers some momentary issue, it can't buffer to catch up, it has to drop frames, because it's live, there's no future content available to buffer unless your IPTV STB is a delorean.

This really isn't true... real-time IPTV DOES buffer, absolutely. You typically keep a buffer of between one and four seconds worth of video on local networks, because network delivery of packets is typically a jittery mess. When you start broadcasting video over the internet you now have clock syncronization issues as well, as what your STB believes is 30 FPS will be slightly different than what the transmitter though was 30 FPS (it'll be incredibly close, but even a fraction of a percent error adds up over time, and can lead to starvation issues). This typically means that you dynamically re-timestamp video frames with appropriate presentation times to ensure that you have as much buffer as you require. You can do things like, play your incoming live feed at closer to 29 FPS, with audio resampling to play it slower to match the video. This allows you to grow a buffer on Live feeds! Once you've accumulated as much buffer as you need, you slowly start ramping the rate back up to 30 FPS, and then ramp the playback speed up and down to account for the different clock speeds between what you believe is 30 FPS and what the content transmitter believes is 30 FPS, effectively slaving yourself to the content transmitter, albeit in a more round about way than the normal method. The long and short of it is, you do have a buffer, and it is maintained to deal with network jitter, and manage clock syncronization issues. This means that QOS for low latency connections isn't really necessary. All you need is your network to be reliable enough to not drop packets.

Note: I work in the broadcast industry, and it's ruined TV... I see.. EVERY GLITCH.


Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada
reply to El Quintron
I think it's all moot at this point anyway, as I think one would need unlimited, and Tek's unlimited is just plain too expensive.

deyraud

join:2009-04-04
Ottawa, ON
reply to Guspaz
If you want carrier-agnostic IPTV you can try NationPhone. It's American IPTV for Ex-Pats. »www.nationphone.com/Premium_TV_Plan.html
But the problem here is that its so expensive that you might as well go back to Videotron -- it'll be cheaper

The cheaper, channel limited, mostly SD version is called ustvnow. »ustvnow.com/ (but on the flip side it works with XBMC!)

pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15

1 edit
reply to ShetiPhian
said by ShetiPhian:

NBC, CTV, Fox, Discovery, Space

Those are the only channels I miss when I cut cable and went exclusively Netflix. (there was others but their basically all reality tv crap now)

A C-band dish will get you all of those channels. NBC, CTV and Fox for free with no monthly fees on C-band FTA while Discovery and SyFy (i.e. Space US) are available as subscription services on HITS TV which runs off the same C-band dish.

pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15

1 edit
reply to kmoed
said by kmoed:

OTA + Online services at this point, is the only real alternative, Although limited to most.

You forgot FTA satellite which is another good and legal alternative which compliments nicely what you can receive via OTA by adding specialty and international channels along with "wild feeds" for various sporting events. Up to 300 channels are available on Ku-band FTA while an additional 400 are also available on C-band FTA.

pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15
reply to stevey_frac

said by stevey_frac See Profile
This really isn't true... real-time IPTV DOES buffer, absolutely. You typically keep a buffer of between one and four seconds worth of video on local networks, because network delivery of packets is typically a jittery mess.

exactly, which is why any IPTV service will add a few more seconds to the already delayed feed so the content you will be seeing will be about 10 seconds delayed once it is shown on your TV


stevey_frac

join:2009-12-09
Cambridge, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
IF you think there's only 10 seconds of latency in your live feed, you're dreaming. Even the tv's in the stadiums typically have 2 seconds of latency. The best systems are still half a second, and they take a pretty severe quality hit to do that.

-Steve

pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15
said by stevey_frac:

IF you think there's only 10 seconds of latency in your live feed, you're dreaming. Even the tv's in the stadiums typically have 2 seconds of latency. The best systems are still half a second, and they take a pretty severe quality hit to do that.

-Steve

I used the word "about" meaning approximately 10 seconds. this could vary based on a variety of factors including the channel itself, event being shown and service provider. The feed receivable outside the stadium with the least latency would be the backhaul on C or Ku band satellite. I have seen up to a 5 second delay between that feed and the channel on Cable carrying the event.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to stevey_frac
said by stevey_frac:

This really isn't true... real-time IPTV DOES buffer, absolutely. You typically keep a buffer of between one and four seconds worth of video on local networks, because network delivery of packets is typically a jittery mess. When you start broadcasting video over the internet you now have clock syncronization issues as well, as what your STB believes is 30 FPS will be slightly different than what the transmitter though was 30 FPS (it'll be incredibly close, but even a fraction of a percent error adds up over time, and can lead to starvation issues). This typically means that you dynamically re-timestamp video frames with appropriate presentation times to ensure that you have as much buffer as you require. You can do things like, play your incoming live feed at closer to 29 FPS, with audio resampling to play it slower to match the video. This allows you to grow a buffer on Live feeds! Once you've accumulated as much buffer as you need, you slowly start ramping the rate back up to 30 FPS, and then ramp the playback speed up and down to account for the different clock speeds between what you believe is 30 FPS and what the content transmitter believes is 30 FPS, effectively slaving yourself to the content transmitter, albeit in a more round about way than the normal method. The long and short of it is, you do have a buffer, and it is maintained to deal with network jitter, and manage clock syncronization issues. This means that QOS for low latency connections isn't really necessary. All you need is your network to be reliable enough to not drop packets.

Note: I work in the broadcast industry, and it's ruined TV... I see.. EVERY GLITCH.

You do realize that your explanation simply reinforces my point that IPTV doesn't buffer like people traditionally think of buffering? :P With an offline VoD feed, the complete video is available online, so it just to play back what it has while pulling down the rest as fast as it can, maybe throwing in some max read-ahead to avoid buffering the whole thing. IPTV buffering works nothing like that, and is limited to seconds rather than minutes, and has to pull all sorts of tricks as you discussed.

This just reinforces the whole point that Netflix and broadcast IPTV share virtually nothing in common.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
reply to pwrsurge
said by pwrsurge:

A C-band dish will get you all of those channels. NBC, CTV and Fox for free with no monthly fees on C-band FTA while Discovery and SyFy (i.e. Space US) are available as subscription services on HITS TV which runs off the same C-band dish.

Can't have c-band here (assuming the large 8' dish), I helped several people remove their dish after receiving a letter from the city.
I looked into FTA a while back and unless your where "testing" you received only news and non English broadcasts.
Also looked into OVA but due to conflicting information I found I couldn't figure out if the signal was to far away or not.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to stevey_frac
said by stevey_frac:

This means that QOS for low latency connections isn't really necessary. All you need is your network to be reliable enough to not drop packets.

That works fine in a broadcast environment where all the links on the internal network are overspeced and have tons of excess capacity but in the real world with consumer connections that is not the case. Congestion happens whether its at the node or on the customers connection when they're downloading. Without QoS good luck ensuring delivery without packet loss or latency being too high.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to El Quintron
and every isp that gets in bed with big media ends up doing what to its users of internet...so unless its a indie driven and NON BIG media driven IPTV offering im dead against it....and all it does is eat up more of our limited bandwidth due to crc bad rulings.

pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15
reply to ShetiPhian
said by ShetiPhian:

said by pwrsurge:

A C-band dish will get you all of those channels. NBC, CTV and Fox for free with no monthly fees on C-band FTA while Discovery and SyFy (i.e. Space US) are available as subscription services on HITS TV which runs off the same C-band dish.

Can't have c-band here (assuming the large 8' dish), I helped several people remove their dish after receiving a letter from the city.
I looked into FTA a while back and unless your where "testing" you received only news and non English broadcasts.
Also looked into OVA but due to conflicting information I found I couldn't figure out if the signal was to far away or not.

You only need a 6' dish for C-band satellite but I'm surprised the city sent a letter in regards to this. Personally, I would have appealed it as they have no right to dictate what a resident who owns their land can do on their property.

Please don't confuse FTA and satellite piracy as they are two totally separate things! With a medium sized 36 inch (90 cm) dish on Ku-band FTA satellite, you can receive about 300 channels with 85 in English including NBC East, Central, Mountain and West in HD. A complete list of channels is available at »kuband.fta.channels.drsat.ca

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
said by pwrsurge:

Please don't confuse FTA and satellite piracy as they are two totally separate things! With a medium sized 36 inch (90 cm) dish on Ku-band FTA satellite, you can receive about 300 channels with 85 in English including NBC East, Central, Mountain and West in HD. A complete list of channels is available at »kuband.fta.channels.drsat.ca

No confusion here, just personal disappointment.
I bought all of the equipment, never got anything set up as the instructions I was following ended up pointing me to sites to get keys. Not wanting to take part in that I went to a local satellite guy who tried to sell me cards. After finding some good resources I discovered I bought the wrong type of LNBF's and the list of English channels seemed to only be news. I quit after that.
That list looks better, maybe I'll pull my T90 out and put it back up.


jmcneill

join:2010-04-06
Canada
reply to Guspaz
The buffering method that stevey_frac described isn't exactly how most of the IPTV networks here work. Mediaroom (used by Bell, Bell Aliant, Telus, Sasktel, AT&T, etc) adds around 10s of buffering on the network, which means when you tune into a channel the network can fill the client buffer much faster than 1x. The buffers on the client are also deep enough that it can detect packet loss and request re-transmit of individual packets from the network well before it has to decode it.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
Bell also has separate links for IPTV so internet traffic does not at all interfere with IPTV.


GOTEKKY_JP

join:2005-12-12
Saint-Laurent, QC
reply to El Quintron
Just an idea, what about giving third party clients access to their IPTV via a PPPoE login ?

Bhell can go suck a goat now that wholesalers are paying for capacity.