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pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15
reply to stevey_frac

Re: VMedia IPTV is Teksavvy planning on participating?

said by stevey_frac:

IF you think there's only 10 seconds of latency in your live feed, you're dreaming. Even the tv's in the stadiums typically have 2 seconds of latency. The best systems are still half a second, and they take a pretty severe quality hit to do that.

-Steve

I used the word "about" meaning approximately 10 seconds. this could vary based on a variety of factors including the channel itself, event being shown and service provider. The feed receivable outside the stadium with the least latency would be the backhaul on C or Ku band satellite. I have seen up to a 5 second delay between that feed and the channel on Cable carrying the event.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to stevey_frac
said by stevey_frac:

This really isn't true... real-time IPTV DOES buffer, absolutely. You typically keep a buffer of between one and four seconds worth of video on local networks, because network delivery of packets is typically a jittery mess. When you start broadcasting video over the internet you now have clock syncronization issues as well, as what your STB believes is 30 FPS will be slightly different than what the transmitter though was 30 FPS (it'll be incredibly close, but even a fraction of a percent error adds up over time, and can lead to starvation issues). This typically means that you dynamically re-timestamp video frames with appropriate presentation times to ensure that you have as much buffer as you require. You can do things like, play your incoming live feed at closer to 29 FPS, with audio resampling to play it slower to match the video. This allows you to grow a buffer on Live feeds! Once you've accumulated as much buffer as you need, you slowly start ramping the rate back up to 30 FPS, and then ramp the playback speed up and down to account for the different clock speeds between what you believe is 30 FPS and what the content transmitter believes is 30 FPS, effectively slaving yourself to the content transmitter, albeit in a more round about way than the normal method. The long and short of it is, you do have a buffer, and it is maintained to deal with network jitter, and manage clock syncronization issues. This means that QOS for low latency connections isn't really necessary. All you need is your network to be reliable enough to not drop packets.

Note: I work in the broadcast industry, and it's ruined TV... I see.. EVERY GLITCH.

You do realize that your explanation simply reinforces my point that IPTV doesn't buffer like people traditionally think of buffering? :P With an offline VoD feed, the complete video is available online, so it just to play back what it has while pulling down the rest as fast as it can, maybe throwing in some max read-ahead to avoid buffering the whole thing. IPTV buffering works nothing like that, and is limited to seconds rather than minutes, and has to pull all sorts of tricks as you discussed.

This just reinforces the whole point that Netflix and broadcast IPTV share virtually nothing in common.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
reply to pwrsurge
said by pwrsurge:

A C-band dish will get you all of those channels. NBC, CTV and Fox for free with no monthly fees on C-band FTA while Discovery and SyFy (i.e. Space US) are available as subscription services on HITS TV which runs off the same C-band dish.

Can't have c-band here (assuming the large 8' dish), I helped several people remove their dish after receiving a letter from the city.
I looked into FTA a while back and unless your where "testing" you received only news and non English broadcasts.
Also looked into OVA but due to conflicting information I found I couldn't figure out if the signal was to far away or not.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to stevey_frac
said by stevey_frac:

This means that QOS for low latency connections isn't really necessary. All you need is your network to be reliable enough to not drop packets.

That works fine in a broadcast environment where all the links on the internal network are overspeced and have tons of excess capacity but in the real world with consumer connections that is not the case. Congestion happens whether its at the node or on the customers connection when they're downloading. Without QoS good luck ensuring delivery without packet loss or latency being too high.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to El Quintron
and every isp that gets in bed with big media ends up doing what to its users of internet...so unless its a indie driven and NON BIG media driven IPTV offering im dead against it....and all it does is eat up more of our limited bandwidth due to crc bad rulings.

pwrsurge

join:2009-04-15
reply to ShetiPhian
said by ShetiPhian:

said by pwrsurge:

A C-band dish will get you all of those channels. NBC, CTV and Fox for free with no monthly fees on C-band FTA while Discovery and SyFy (i.e. Space US) are available as subscription services on HITS TV which runs off the same C-band dish.

Can't have c-band here (assuming the large 8' dish), I helped several people remove their dish after receiving a letter from the city.
I looked into FTA a while back and unless your where "testing" you received only news and non English broadcasts.
Also looked into OVA but due to conflicting information I found I couldn't figure out if the signal was to far away or not.

You only need a 6' dish for C-band satellite but I'm surprised the city sent a letter in regards to this. Personally, I would have appealed it as they have no right to dictate what a resident who owns their land can do on their property.

Please don't confuse FTA and satellite piracy as they are two totally separate things! With a medium sized 36 inch (90 cm) dish on Ku-band FTA satellite, you can receive about 300 channels with 85 in English including NBC East, Central, Mountain and West in HD. A complete list of channels is available at »kuband.fta.channels.drsat.ca

ShetiPhian

join:2011-12-29
Belleville, ON
said by pwrsurge:

Please don't confuse FTA and satellite piracy as they are two totally separate things! With a medium sized 36 inch (90 cm) dish on Ku-band FTA satellite, you can receive about 300 channels with 85 in English including NBC East, Central, Mountain and West in HD. A complete list of channels is available at »kuband.fta.channels.drsat.ca

No confusion here, just personal disappointment.
I bought all of the equipment, never got anything set up as the instructions I was following ended up pointing me to sites to get keys. Not wanting to take part in that I went to a local satellite guy who tried to sell me cards. After finding some good resources I discovered I bought the wrong type of LNBF's and the list of English channels seemed to only be news. I quit after that.
That list looks better, maybe I'll pull my T90 out and put it back up.


jmcneill

join:2010-04-06
Canada
reply to Guspaz
The buffering method that stevey_frac described isn't exactly how most of the IPTV networks here work. Mediaroom (used by Bell, Bell Aliant, Telus, Sasktel, AT&T, etc) adds around 10s of buffering on the network, which means when you tune into a channel the network can fill the client buffer much faster than 1x. The buffers on the client are also deep enough that it can detect packet loss and request re-transmit of individual packets from the network well before it has to decode it.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
Bell also has separate links for IPTV so internet traffic does not at all interfere with IPTV.


GOTEKKY_JP

join:2005-12-12
Saint-Laurent, QC
reply to El Quintron
Just an idea, what about giving third party clients access to their IPTV via a PPPoE login ?

Bhell can go suck a goat now that wholesalers are paying for capacity.
Expand your moderator at work

sourtimes

join:2012-12-16
York, ON
reply to El Quintron

Re: VMedia IPTV is Teksavvy planning on participating?

I've been watching this and am interested. I looked at Vmedia but immediately lost interest when I saw I had to go with them for internet service as well. I thought perhaps you could just get the box and use it via your existing internet from any provider.

Is there some sort of CRTC regulation that mandates TV providers to have these 'packages' ? I assume it's more just a way to generate more revenue by packaging up desirable channels with some other worthless ones and cornering you into paying for 5 or 6 channels when you only want one.

The holy grail of TV for me would be to literally pick the channels I want on an individual basis and pay just for the channels I plan to watch. IPTV seems like the perfect medium to accommodate providing television service in that manner.


GOTEKKY_JP

join:2005-12-12
Saint-Laurent, QC
reply to El Quintron
Marc if you have some spare change might be a good time to buy VMedia :P


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Start Communicat..

1 edit
reply to sourtimes
said by sourtimes:

The holy grail of TV for me would be to literally pick the channels I want on an individual basis and pay just for the channels I plan to watch. IPTV seems like the perfect medium to accommodate providing television service in that manner.

it's clear with the CRTC that things won't really change. vmedia seems to be nothing more than traditional TV which is really boring.

i believe the best solution for those that don't watch much TV anymore except a few good TV shows is a netflix account for unlimited on demand content combined with iTunes or similar services (not much else available in Canada) that lets you pay per episode or subscribe to an entire season, why pay for an entire channel if you only one 1-2 shows? Netflix won't have the new stuff, but iTunes will.

sadly the only thing missing si HBO content online for us, iTunes Australia and a few other countries get new HBO and Game of Thrones the next day tho so there is hope.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
said by jmck:

it's clear with the CRTC that things won't really change.

It probably would change should traditional broadcasting through BDUs become obsolete though that would be a much longer timeframe.

Then again there is nothing stopping anyone from filing a CRTC or Industry Canada request asking them to look at regulation changes.

xdrag

join:2005-02-18
North York, ON

4 edits
reply to El Quintron
The best type of service would be IPTV + VoD. Most modern TV watchers stream shows on "their own time". Live-TV, as others said, is "boring".

With modern speeds, you can get uncompressed 1080p signals which Rogers can't offer. (they get compressed and decompressed)

Within a decade 4K resolution can be easily adopted through IPTV whereas I see rogers having a lot more trouble offering through traditional cable lines. There isn't enough available bandwidth.

Add in VoIP+TV+FTTH, you can have a nice niche of services like what googlefiber is trying to do. (and bell) That will be "tomorrow's" home where you can remotely monitor your house with an app.

As long as TSI is controlled by Rogers/Bells infrastructure, I don't see IPTV being viable for TSI. The incumbents can always pull sneaky tricks with the CRTC. IF TSI starts building their own network, IPTV + VoIP is the natural route to take.

$150 for ultra-fast internet (45 unlimited or 150 megs capped at 300GB), TV, VoIP is competitive with the incumbents. The "unique favor" of that offering is the internet speed, unlimited usage and VoD shows. It comes down to whether TSI wants to be a big "player" or continue to be a wholesaler.

Webslingerac

join:2004-05-01
canada
Rats, I really wish Teksavvy would offer IPTV.

coolspot18

join:2012-10-23
reply to El Quintron
Pricing on VMedia seems to be almost the same as Rogers Digital cable - why would go with a streaming service when traditional TV is almost the same price?

Webslingerac

join:2004-05-01
canada
When I start factoring in HD pricing (which is the only thing I care about; really, who gives a F about SD anymore?), IPTV is cheaper. Moreover, Robbers, Blah Effect (Shaw Direct), and Bhell like to start sneaking in $5 price increases every few months (this is especially true of Shaw Direct). And then you have to call in to their respective retention departments to negotiate better pricing (which sometimes is only offered if you decide to go on a contract). I'm sick and tired of that nonsense.

koreyb
Open the Canadian Market NOW

join:2005-01-08
East York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to TypeS
said by TypeS:

said by kmoed:

Make the Basic package $1, and I am in.

Is that really a serious expectation?

I would rather they offer just the LOCALS on Basic, price it for what's that worth, and let us pick what we want past that. Vision, TFO, CTV NEWS, CBC NEWSNETWORK, CP24 etc. etc. should not be part of basic. If I want it, I will pay for it.


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
i honestly only care about local TV + sports stations (i'd prefer just Sportsnet over TSN too if i could save) just so i can get Sens games live. i'm pretty sure next year I will simply get NHL Center Ice package.

koreyb
Open the Canadian Market NOW

join:2005-01-08
East York, ON
Reviews:
·VMedia
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by jmck:

i honestly only care about local TV + sports stations (i'd prefer just Sportsnet over TSN too if i could save) just so i can get Sens games live. i'm pretty sure next year I will simply get NHL Center Ice package.

Same.. In Toronto, I get 30 channels FREE OTA, between Toronto, Hamilton, and Buffalo, in FREE HD. I cancelled Cable because of this, but if cable companies moved to a LOCALS ONLY basic, and let us pick what we want past that, I may come back to Cable. Vmedia with their planned pick and choose that George talked about, they may get be back, if it's available via TSI.


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
i'm pretty sure TSI has no interest in peering with Vmedia and offering the services to their clients, they'd rather sell you a solution themselves.

etech

join:2011-02-14
reply to Webslingerac
said by Webslingerac:

Rats, I really wish Teksavvy would offer IPTV.

and the exact reason I didnt go with Teksavvy. Teksavvy is falling behind and not innovating/offering new services but I guess that's their decision.

There are more reasons, upfront cost @Tek is higher than many others providers (they give 50% discount min and Tek was not flexible at all when I tried so I went) but thats beside the discussion here.

etech

join:2011-02-14
reply to jmck
said by jmck:

i'm pretty sure TSI has no interest in peering with Vmedia and offering the services to their clients, they'd rather sell you a solution themselves.


I doubt it 100%. Tek earlier said they do not have interest If I recall.


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Start Communicat..
Marc basically said he has no interest in providing the capability for another company to provide a set-top box for TV services since customers won't switch to a TSI offering one day.

at the same time, why should Marc/TSI pay for a peer? it seems Vmedia should fully cover the integration cost and offer ISPs a fraction of each sale or something.