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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to Last Parade

Premium Member

to Last Parade

Re: [Serious] Hospital parking rates a 'tax' on sick Canadians

said by Last Parade:

said by digitalfutur:

No one is saying you should. Driving is not a right. If you choose the convenience of driving, you pay for the convenience of parking.

Get off your high horse. The NHS just built a hospital in the middle of nowhere and shifted most major services there. What do you want the kid with a chemo appointment to do, walk there? What if he's not well enough to take the bus?

Have a parent or other relative take him.

Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium Member
join:2005-03-12

Wolfie00

Premium Member

And then what does the parent or other relative do with the car while waiting for him?

Last Parade
join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

Last Parade to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by Last Parade:

said by digitalfutur:

No one is saying you should. Driving is not a right. If you choose the convenience of driving, you pay for the convenience of parking.

Get off your high horse. The NHS just built a hospital in the middle of nowhere and shifted most major services there. What do you want the kid with a chemo appointment to do, walk there? What if he's not well enough to take the bus?

Have a parent or other relative take him.

Then they're paying exorbitant rates for parking. What if they're on a budget or out of work?

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to peterboro

to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by Spike5:

said by WhaleOilBee:

Even if it went to funding a lounge for nursing staff, I'm fine with that. Lord knows, these hard working folks deserve it.

Giveth in one hand, Taketh in the other. My nurse friend pays about $2000 a year just to park at her own hospital.

I wonder if at that amount it would be worth an appeal to Federal Court for a ruling on the tax implications?

When my wife worked in hospital administration, she paid that in parking. It is not a taxable benefit.

digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium Member
join:2000-07-15
GTA

digitalfutur to Gone

Premium Member

to Gone
So are you suggesting that parking at hospitals be free? What are the parking rates at that NRH hospital in the middle of nowhere, where the location,BTW, is the exception, not the rule.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to Wolfie00

Premium Member

to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

And then what does the parent or other relative do with the car while waiting for him?

Go park nearby with an area with free parking. And have kid call when ready to go and be picked up. Or walk to hospital after dropping kid off.

Or take kid and another relative to wait with him. Then leave and come back.

Take out a loan or put on credit card to pay for parking. Wow, families have to tighten belt when dealing with adversity.

What is with the attitude that when something bad happens, everybody else has to pay for it?

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to digitalfutur

Premium Member

to digitalfutur
said by digitalfutur:

So are you suggesting that parking at hospitals be free? What are the parking rates at that NRH hospital in the middle of nowhere, where the location,BTW, is the exception, not the rule.

NRH? What is this NRH you speak of?

TLS2000
Premium Member
join:2004-02-24
Elmsdale, NS

1 recommendation

TLS2000 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
Uh, because this is Canada and we generally have a belief that society has a responsibility to take care of those in less fortunate circumstances. It's been like that for at least a century here.

Last Parade
join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

Last Parade to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by Wolfie00:

And then what does the parent or other relative do with the car while waiting for him?

Go park nearby with an area with free parking. And have kid call when ready to go and be picked up. Or walk to hospital after dropping kid off.

Or take kid and another relative to wait with him. Then leave and come back.

Take out a loan or put on credit card to pay for parking. Wow, families have to tighten belt when dealing with adversity.

What is with the attitude that when something bad happens, everybody else has to pay for it?

Ugh, LOLbertarians.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to TLS2000

Premium Member

to TLS2000
said by TLS2000:

Uh, because this is Canada and we generally have a belief that society has a responsibility to take care of those in less fortunate circumstances. It's been like that for at least a century here.

Very nice thought. But it also breeds a group of people that feel every thing is owed them and who have no drive to take responsibility for preparing for the inevitable problems all people/families will encounter in life. In other words, live for today and if something bad happens, well it is somebody else's job to take care of the problem. That works until more and more people subscribe to that philosophy and then guess what - the resources to take care of them are gone.

Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium Member
join:2005-03-12

1 recommendation

Wolfie00 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by Wolfie00:

And then what does the parent or other relative do with the car while waiting for him?

Go park nearby with an area with free parking. And have kid call when ready to go and be picked up. Or walk to hospital after dropping kid off.

Or take kid and another relative to wait with him. Then leave and come back.

Take out a loan or put on credit card to pay for parking. Wow, families have to tighten belt when dealing with adversity.

What is with the attitude that when something bad happens, everybody else has to pay for it?

This:
said by TLS2000:

Uh, because this is Canada and we generally have a belief that society has a responsibility to take care of those in less fortunate circumstances. It's been like that for at least a century here.

Requiring a mother who's just taken her son to chemo to spend the next hour or two looking for "free" parking someplace like Toronto or anywhere in the GTA, or walking a mile or two to get back to the hospital, is exactly the kind of theory that sounds terrific to those of your ideological persuasion -- right up until the time that it happens to you. And then, mysteriously, there's a dramatic epiphany!

As was already mentioned, when people visit hospital as patients or loved ones of patients, whether in ER or for longer term admissions, it's generally in circumstances where parking cost is the least of anyone's concerns at that moment of crisis. So they just pay it. What this discussion is about is whether it's ethical for hospitals to take advantage of that.

Last Parade
join:2002-10-07
Port Colborne, ON

Last Parade to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by TLS2000:

Uh, because this is Canada and we generally have a belief that society has a responsibility to take care of those in less fortunate circumstances. It's been like that for at least a century here.

Very nice thought. But it also breeds a group of people that feel every thing is owed them and who have no drive to take responsibility for preparing for the inevitable problems all people/families will encounter in life. In other words, live for today and if something bad happens, well it is somebody else's job to take care of the problem. That works until more and more people subscribe to that philosophy and then guess what - the resources to take care of them are gone.

Hospital parking does not need to cost the families of cancer patients thousands of dollars per year.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to lugnut

Premium Member

to lugnut
I believe that posters that question our support of patient parking at low cost or no cost, either have gobs of money coming out their ears or simply have no experience with sick or dying loved ones.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to Wolfie00

Premium Member

to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

What this discussion is about is whether it's ethical for hospitals to take advantage of that.

It's completely not demonstrated that Hospitals are "taking advantage" here.

"He defends the costs, saying that $5 million goes into research, infrastructure and patient care."

Those "bastards" spending parking fees on such things as patient care? How do they even sleep at night?

I am not sure if anyone here has ever parked a car, but generally speaking free spots are taken up faster than those that cost money.

So assuming that we come up with some other way to somehow fund this parking (tax increase? lower quality care?), the new complaint will be that there IS NO PARKING to be had at hospitals, and that people seeking to visit loved ones are finding that they need to park 10 blocks away at another pay lot and have to walk there..... I'm sure CBC Marketplace will be all over that important story as well.

*smacks head* There's how we can pay for parking at hospitals! Take the $1billion a year we pay for the CBC to go towards a fund to reimburse parking for hospital stays.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

Ian, your arguments are feeble. The hospital simply has to take into account the cost of having a parking lot into the budget. They have to provide parking for staff and for patients. Visitors to patients are not as much as a concern of course. Yes, we pay but its spread out amongst all tax payers when its part of the budget. Some costs can be recouped by a parking costs to those that are visiting. Why not start up a casino in the foyer if your motives are making money for the hospital.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to Wolfie00

to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

Requiring a mother who's just taken her son to chemo to spend the next hour or two looking for "free" parking someplace like Toronto or anywhere in the GTA, or walking a mile or two to get back to the hospital, is exactly the kind of theory that sounds terrific to those of your ideological persuasion -- right up until the time that it happens to you. And then, mysteriously, there's a dramatic epiphany!

As was already mentioned, when people visit hospital as patients or loved ones of patients, whether in ER or for longer term admissions, it's generally in circumstances where parking cost is the least of anyone's concerns at that moment of crisis. So they just pay it. What this discussion is about is whether it's ethical for hospitals to take advantage of that.

And guess what? The cancer argument is a complete, total fail. No matter where you are in Ontario (yes, you heard me right; no matter where you are) The Canadian Cancer Society will provide you with a driver and car at no cost to you, to take you to your appointment and return you to your home.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to Anav

Premium Member

to Anav
said by Anav:

Why not start up a casino in the foyer if your motives are making money for the hospital.

My motives? My motives have nothing to do with hospital profiteering. That's not my deal. Although installing video-poker terminals in the EKG systems beside patient beds does sound like an excellent idea, and far more entertaining for the patient than merely watching the blips on the screen go by. (See there's probably a good reason why I don't have that job.)

Was merely pointing out that it has not been demonstrated that hospitals are "taking advantage" by charging for parking. I am sure that most hospitals would prefer that the real estate where they sit was donated freely, pavement was paid by someone else, and never needed re-paving, and that they could be cleaned and maintained by magical faeries at night. Until that happens, it costs money. The argument over "who" ought to pay for it becomes more crystallized if we were say.... to now be considering the proposal that $5 off of each of our paycheques each week was to go into a fund to pay for hospital visitor parking.

And I stand by my assertion that heavily discounted, or free parking will merely shift the problem away from it being expensive to it being "unavailable at any cost".

Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium Member
join:2005-03-12

Wolfie00 to DKS

Premium Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by Wolfie00:

Requiring a mother who's just taken her son to chemo to spend the next hour or two looking for "free" parking someplace like Toronto or anywhere in the GTA, or walking a mile or two to get back to the hospital, is exactly the kind of theory that sounds terrific to those of your ideological persuasion -- right up until the time that it happens to you. And then, mysteriously, there's a dramatic epiphany!

As was already mentioned, when people visit hospital as patients or loved ones of patients, whether in ER or for longer term admissions, it's generally in circumstances where parking cost is the least of anyone's concerns at that moment of crisis. So they just pay it. What this discussion is about is whether it's ethical for hospitals to take advantage of that.

And guess what? The cancer argument is a complete, total fail. No matter where you are in Ontario (yes, you heard me right; no matter where you are) The Canadian Cancer Society will provide you with a driver and car at no cost to you, to take you to your appointment and return you to your home.

I wasn't aware of that. Not sure that all eligible patients necessarily are, either. But I'll say something here that is a bit of a digression, but maybe worth saying.

There are significant inequalities in our social system with respect to popularly recognized causes versus those with not so high a profile. A cancer patient may have the benefit that you describe (I wouldn't be surprised if there are huge exceptions and things that fall through the cracks -- trust me, you're not the only one with experience with health care bureaucracy) but what about all those suffering with thousands of other serious and potentially fatal diseases? Where do they get their rides?

The same things actually propagate through our whole social system, where some who fall into the right bureaucratic bucket get benefits out the wazoo, and those who don't -- who may be equally needy and deserving -- are SOL.

So I will take your statement with a grain of salt to begin with, and express my frustration that such concepts aren't universal. Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier if hospitals just eased off on the gouging at the parking lot, at least for the chronically ill?

andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario

andyb

Premium Member

They wouldn't take my dad to his kemo.Said he was able to drive and I know he could of.He wouldnt be able to drive home thou.

Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium Member
join:2005-03-12

Wolfie00 to Ian1

Premium Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by Wolfie00:

What this discussion is about is whether it's ethical for hospitals to take advantage of that.

It's completely not demonstrated that Hospitals are "taking advantage" here.

"He defends the costs, saying that $5 million goes into research, infrastructure and patient care."

Those "bastards" spending parking fees on such things as patient care? How do they even sleep at night?

I am not sure if anyone here has ever parked a car, but generally speaking free spots are taken up faster than those that cost money.

So assuming that we come up with some other way to somehow fund this parking (tax increase? lower quality care?), the new complaint will be that there IS NO PARKING to be had at hospitals, and that people seeking to visit loved ones are finding that they need to park 10 blocks away at another pay lot and have to walk there..... I'm sure CBC Marketplace will be all over that important story as well.

*smacks head* There's how we can pay for parking at hospitals! Take the $1billion a year we pay for the CBC to go towards a fund to reimburse parking for hospital stays.

So your theory is, that if a hospital offered (say, for the sake of argument) one free parking pass to any "significant other" of an admitted patient -- strictly for the duration of their stay -- that all their parking lots would instantly fill up to overflowing? That would imply that, due to parking costs, all these loved ones are currently not being visited, and are being told "good luck, call me if you get better"!

The "no parking would be available" argument sounds a lot like the argument against universal health care being advanced in the US, "if there was no direct personal cost to health care, why, everyone would want it!"

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by Wolfie00:

So your theory is, that if a hospital offered (say, for the sake of argument) one free parking pass to any "significant other" of an admitted patient -- strictly for the duration of their stay -- that all their parking lots would instantly fill up to overflowing? That would imply that, due to parking costs, all these loved ones are currently not being visited, and are being told "good luck, call me if you get better"!

The "no parking would be available" argument sounds a lot like the argument against universal health care being advanced in the US, "if there was no direct personal cost to health care, why, everyone would want it!"

My theory? No. I went ahead and read the referenced article that started this thread. I'm funny that way.

In it, survey respondents (if we take them at their word) were visiting less than if parking weren't a cost concern.

If you gave each individual loved one a free parking pass (limit 20? at the expense of patient care?) I don't know if the parking lots would over-flow. But they might. So the free parking passes could indeed be worthless.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to andyb

to andyb
said by andyb:

They wouldn't take my dad to his kemo.Said he was able to drive and I know he could of.He wouldnt be able to drive home thou.

They do up here. At no charge.
DKS

DKS to Wolfie00

to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:

I wasn't aware of that. Not sure that all eligible patients necessarily are, either. But I'll say something here that is a bit of a digression, but maybe worth saying.

There are significant inequalities in our social system with respect to popularly recognized causes versus those with not so high a profile. A cancer patient may have the benefit that you describe (I wouldn't be surprised if there are huge exceptions and things that fall through the cracks -- trust me, you're not the only one with experience with health care bureaucracy) but what about all those suffering with thousands of other serious and potentially fatal diseases? Where do they get their rides?

All of this is arranged through CCAC. If it isn't the Cancer Society, it may be Community Living. I know for a fact that such services, including out of town medical appointments, are 100% covered for people on ODSP if they have no means of transportation.
DKS

DKS to Ian1

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

said by Anav:

Why not start up a casino in the foyer if your motives are making money for the hospital.

My motives? My motives have nothing to do with hospital profiteering. That's not my deal. Although installing video-poker terminals in the EKG systems beside patient beds does sound like an excellent idea, and far more entertaining for the patient than merely watching the blips on the screen go by. (See there's probably a good reason why I don't have that job.)

I have suggested an "instant lotto" game based on which elevator arrives at a given floor first. They don't seem to like it, so some reason.

Many years ago, when the Mike Harris government inaugurated hospital restructuring and budget cutting, I did read a document outlining how one hospital might charge for services. One was increase parking charges. Another was to switch to a "white" pay phone services. Another was to bring in ATM's. Th money made would not have been chump change. But it would not have come near to providing needed funds.
DKS

DKS to Last Parade

to Last Parade
said by Last Parade:

said by FFH5:

said by TLS2000:

Uh, because this is Canada and we generally have a belief that society has a responsibility to take care of those in less fortunate circumstances. It's been like that for at least a century here.

Very nice thought. But it also breeds a group of people that feel every thing is owed them and who have no drive to take responsibility for preparing for the inevitable problems all people/families will encounter in life. In other words, live for today and if something bad happens, well it is somebody else's job to take care of the problem. That works until more and more people subscribe to that philosophy and then guess what - the resources to take care of them are gone.

Hospital parking does not need to cost the families of cancer patients thousands of dollars per year.

And in any case, it can be claimed on income tax if they have to travel more than 40 km.

Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario

Kalford to lugnut

MVM

to lugnut
My experience: the same sort of people that bitch and whine loudly about paying for hospital parking - are the same sort of selfish "it's all-about-me" weasels that would be the first to abuse free parking lots. . . for non-hospital related reasons (ie. shopping a block over). . .leaving the lots full and unavailable to people who actually needed to use them for hospital visits.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

When people are going to the hospital for ongoing medical treatment for themselves or an immediate member of their family, it is about them. Everyone else's opinion - most particularly your own - is irrelevant

Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario

Kalford

MVM

^
Speaking of irrelevant opinions. . .

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

Well, you obviously found it important enough on a personal level for you to respond, so it looks like you're trying to lie to yourself by claiming it is irrelevant.

... and considering I have a lifelong ongoing illness that requires continual trips to a hospital 50km away for tests and treatment that requires me to pay for parking because there is no transit and no way to walk, my opinion on this issue is more relevant than yours

Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario

3 edits

1 recommendation

Kalford

MVM

said by Gone:

Well, you I obviously found Kalford's opinion important enough on a personal level for youme to respond repeatedly, so it looks like you'reI'm trying to lie to yourselfmyself by claiming it is irrelevant.

Your opinion is as relevant as your vote at the ballot box. . .which has absolutely no more value than mine

as for my experience, my daughter grew up with regular visits on a monthly basis that we travelled over 100 km's for. Most of the people that complained all the time about things like parking were the same ones that I would see trying to scam extra expenses out of not just oadp but also Easter Seals and War Amps. ie. phoney parking claims - padded food and gas expenses etc.. Whining scamming weasels is what they were. And if that strikes too close to home for some here. . . not my problem. That is their own.