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keenmay

join:2010-08-22

Is there such thing as FTTN blind spot?

Hi,

Does anyone know of how Bell FTTN deployment works?
My neighborhood already has FTTN, but only with FTTN profile from 10/1 - 15/1. All neighborhood around me has 25/10 (this is what wanted btw) and up.
Is there any hope of Bell upgrade my neighborhood for higher speed?


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON
FFTN still uses the old copper wires in the ground (like with land lines and regular DSL) but only for the very end of the connection (to each house). The copper wiring usually ends at a nearby remote, which is one of those huge brown box things marked with a bunch of numbers somewhere near by.

The most likely reason for your lowered speed availability is because of technical aspects of your neighbourhood. The most common issue is something called loop length, but there could be other line difficulties. It would depend on what your immediate neighbours could get (if they subscribe to bell) as to what the issue is. If your lines are too long you will not be able to get any faster speeds until bell shortens them (upgrades), but thats anyone's guess.

There is a small chance you have ADSL2+ service instead of VDSL as well. If you are far enough away from the remote or directly connected to the central office--instead of a remote, its possible. ADSL2+ has limited upload speeds like you have for example--but its anyone's guess once your officially disqualified.

You may have to do more investigation but other then waiting for bell to fix it (something only bell knows, if at all) its all you can do.

keenmay

join:2010-08-22

1 edit
reply to keenmay
Not sure if it make any difference, but my neighborhood is 15 yrs old, so it's quite new to be any cabling problem. I think I'm simply too far. I know the nearest CO is 2KM away. I know FTTN is still DSL, as stated I do get speed up to 10/1 available to me, but I wanted 25/10. The neighborhoods around us have higher speed profiles, that led me to believe Bell finished upgrading to FTTN in our area. So our neighborhood is just too far for higher FTTN profiles, I'm I out of luck or will Bell eventually upgrade for higher speed?


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON
Remember that your loop length will not necessarily be the same as a straight-line distance to the CO (if you are CO fed and not on a remote). I've heard of stories where some areas have the lines wrapping around the very edge of the area before bee-lining back in towards the CO (and all kinds of crazy routes).

Though to make a quick guess (I'll be corrected if I am wrong) but 2000 metres is only half way, so your loop (there and back / transmit and receive ) is actually closer to 4000 meters. That would DQ you for anything over 20 megs (combined up and down) for download due to something called Attenuation (in and around 40dB or so).

If my memory serves me right you need below 20dB to get the higher speeds.

There are other aspects too that are involved. You can estimate from your line stats some of those but your probably right about having to wait.

No one has any idea when Bell plans or carries out its upgrades. Down here in Windsor there are no plans whatsoever for Bell to deploy FTTN at all--at any time, for example.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by neochu:

No one has any idea when Bell plans or carries out its upgrades. Down here in Windsor there are no plans whatsoever for Bell to deploy FTTN at all--at any time, for example.

Hrm, I think you might find yourself surprised to have made that statement by the time the end of of 2015 rolls around. It's not about Internet, it's about Fibe TV.

keenmay

join:2010-08-22
reply to keenmay
I guess I'm out of luck , I'm just tuck away in the dead end of the neighborhood. Actually my whole neighborhood is in a dead end, max offered is 15/1.
Is there such thing as extending beyond the 2km limit ?


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by neochu:

No one has any idea when Bell plans or carries out its upgrades. Down here in Windsor there are no plans whatsoever for Bell to deploy FTTN at all--at any time, for example.

Hrm, I think you might find yourself surprised to have made that statement by the time the end of of 2015 rolls around. It's not about Internet, it's about Fibe TV.

We shall see... It all depends on how much divestiture they want to to for satellite in this market. With 2 cabelcos there is definately open for some competition.

Even then though with that 750 meter limit and the quality of copper here it'll be maybe 5% coverage.

They completely skipped upgrades here for over 10 years so they are going to have to sink billions into this city to get FibberTV. Even with pair bonding your looking at thousands of remotes for the way this city is wired.

Either way Its something I gave up on given my line's high attenuation and one of those line coils on Wyandotte East of George Avenue. My F2 Pair goes south on George so I'm lucky to even have DSL at all.

kneeenmay -

The amount of data you can transfer gets less and less the farther you go out. Copper wires act like antennas and will pick up everything given a long enough reach. Really high speed DSL requires almost perfect line conditions and has a very short reach.

Ive heard of them (Bell has started to experiment) doing something called base pair bonding which could push 20/4 (or so) it to about 2.5km (or 5000m) but it can be an incredibly unstable and complex setup. You split your data onto 2 lines and do some trickery so the system thinks you have one line

Bell wants FibreTV everywhere so it may be a possibility if they move you from ADSL2+ to VDSL-BP. But its not something that anyone can say until it happens.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Bell's ultimate goal will be to move as many people as they can in Ontario and Quebec off of satellite and into IPTV, and then sell their satellite business for a chunk of change rather than continually invest money into an expensive system when they can do it on the cheap over IPTV. Bell can't achieve that goal while cities with 200,000 people have no access to Fibe TV.

Trust me, it'll happen in Windsor, and it'll be more than 5% coverage. St. Catharines and Niagara Falls are complete clusterfucks for wiring and in the case of St. Catharines they have 95% of the city wired for Fibe TV right now and in the other it's being rolled out as I type this. I was always under the impression that Bell wouldn't be doing anything in Fort Erie until my son has graduated high school (he just turned 1 last week) and a few weeks ago I found out that a TV server has been installed at the CO already, they're starting to hire Fibe TV sales staff for the town and that the 7330s get installed this summer. If they're doing it in a town of 30,000 people they'll be doing it in Windsor for sure.


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON
This is a bit off topic here but Ill bite..

To do the 862 square Km of urban Windsor though your looking at 5 COs to completely renovate (if you include Lasalle and Tecumseh). Some of the copper loop lengths here run to 6000 meters or more (there are a few running up to 8000) so for 100% coverage you have no other options.

To hit that 750 meter mark (1.5km loops) your going to need to install massive numbers of remotes. Fort Erie or St Catherine's you wouldn't need as many but in Windsor your looking at hundreds or thousands. Its not hard to do but its going to be a massive cost.

Unless they just plan a small deployment and will just ignore the rest ala Verizon and ATT in the US of course. They are just getting rid of the extra satellite infrastructure to support removing footprints.

Even if they start within 2Q of this year it'll be at least 5-10 years before they get Windsor hooked up the way you say. People in Windsor on Bell barely push 3/0.8 now, your talking about an area almost twice the size and population of yours.

Plus its been discussed by bell in the past that Windsor wasn't profitable enough for them to bother upgrading at all so it would be interesting to see the change of heart.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
You're making a lot of assumptions without any factual basis for them. There is nothing so special about Windsor that would make it be more complicated or more expensive to do than St. Catharines, Kitchener or - most particularly - Hamilton, all of which have Fibe TV now.


JCohen
Premium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:11
reply to neochu
Bell will likely be pulling fiber and building remotes instead of renovating COs.


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON

2 edits
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

You're making a lot of assumptions without any factual basis for them. There is nothing so special about Windsor that would make it be more complicated or more expensive to do than St. Catharines, Kitchener or - most particularly - Hamilton, all of which have Fibe TV now.

And you have a written proven actually official bell statement that EVERY person in these communities have the bandwidth for it?

I know for a fact there is no FTTN down here whatsoever from Bell and we are still on the same 20 year old tech we were from the 90s and 80's (we are the only major urban centre in Bell's footprint that doesn't have something). For them to suddenly change their heart and come down to "completely" redo the whole city is unrealistic given the past history.

Like I said people barely get anything from bell now here. I have about 20 or so people I know who got rid of it because they couldn't get anything above 3/0.8 or due to usual Bellotics.

Let alone 25/10 or more needed to push both TV and good internet (like 30/5 min for both services -- much like my previous employer).

Unless you have official bell plans for Windsor (and not a backed statement about them divesting in a single satellite)--and not a general "we are going to blanket "millions of square KM" announcement I believe you are making a pretty big assumption.

Knowing standard FTTN games all that announcement could mean is that Bell is planning on abandoning legacy DSL and satellite much like ATT/Verizon is in the US and finishing its deployment in already FTTN served areas (filling in the gaps).

Bell basically abandoned Windsor years ago due to the distance we are from the rest of the country (to focus on the rest of Canada) I don't buy their announcements much like I don't get into 'Windsor vs Rest of Canada' politics when it comes to these things. FTTN stopped in London For a reason and its political. Most poeple don't even realize Bell Satellite is even available here as of now.

If we get it we will be the last in line, after other places have been filled in.

JCohen:

They have been for most of the new subdivisions since the mid 90s down here (its all underground and most of it is UN-serviceable for DSL) but most of the older neighbourhoods here (80%) are CO fed. for example in Downtown Windsor ADSL is all but non existent (like most cities) due to paper insulated POTS plant.

The servers and broadcast equipment for IPTV is still placed in the central offices (BDOs) and distributed via Fibre to the remotes. That was already posted in other threads. They would have to place that equipment in 5 (maybe 6) central offices before stringing fibre to remotes for 100% coverage.

I've yet to hear or see anything to suggest such things are being or have been installed.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by neochu:

And you have a written proven actually official bell statement that EVERY person in these communities have the bandwidth for it?

"Bandwidth" is irrelevant, as the television it's all multicast with the actual service delivered locally from the COs in Windsor. Internet is secondary, though there is *plenty* of dark fibre that runs along the 401. It's simply a non-issue and silly to claim it would ever be an issue. Now, let's do the math. Bell currently has ~3.5M homes in Ontario as of the end of 2012 wired up for Fibe TV. They're adding an additional million this year, with the ultimate goal of over five million homes by the end of 2015. A huge chunk of the Greater Golden Horseshoe - which is half of the province - already has or is being wired right now.

Using simple deduction and reasoning skills, where do you think those additional 1-2 million homes will come from? They're certainly not all remaining in the GTA. They're making their way down the 401 right now, and 2015 isn't that far away. They're spending a shitload of money on this project because it's cheaper than building, launching and maintaining satellites.

Places like Sarnia and Owen Sound which are functionally part of Bell Canada but corporately part of Bell Aliant Regional Communications won't be part of this 5M+ home FTTN-based Fibe TV rollout (though Sudbury is getting it through FTTH), but anywhere with more than a few thousand people that is part of BCE's core holding will eventually get it, including Windsor. Any discussion beyond that is conjecture based on self-loathing or other unsubstantiated silliness.


neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON
Ill say this...

I smell a paid shill...

WE shall see though...

We shall see.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Me? Paid shill? Because I have a basic understand of Bell's Fibe TV deployment schedule? Hahahahahaha, that's rich!