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danwforums
join:2013-04-02
Nepean, ON

1 edit

danwforums

Member

[DSL] A paying customer of more than 4yrs is not worth $25

So as many others noticed, the price drops appeared on the Teksavvy site a while ago.
Last week I checked all the new prices, checked all the fees listed at teksavvy.com and called to change my DSL speed.

Clearly indicated at the web-site, was a "Line Speed Change" charge of $25.
The word 'tier' doesn't appear anywhere, and there is no indication that going from 6meg service to 15meg service is anything other than a change of speed. The "Other Charges" tab of the service I want to buy lists only a line-speed change for $25.

However, the CSR tells me that going from 6 to 15meg is a change of tier and that's $50.
While I'd have no problem paying this if it were indicated clearly up front. I call this a shady bait-and-switch. There's no mention of this, and I suggested that they simply honour the line-change price and update the site to reflect the 'tier-change' pricing for the next customer.

As the CSR couldn't do this, I escalated to a supervisor and suggested that he honour the web price listed of $25. We discussed back and forth for a bit and two things were stated by the supervisor:
1. He could see how I could interpret the site to mean that I was changing speeds and not tiers and did not direct me to a page where tier-change prices were listed. So I believe we have a customer service supervisor who agrees that the customer has a valid point.
2. He then told me in no uncertain terms that he would rather lose me as a customer then honour the listed $25 price. In specific terms, he said that it wasn't worth $25 to keep me as a customer.

This is interesting to me as I have a colleague who earns about $11/yr per referral, so it would appear to me that a little more than every 2yrs someone at TSI values a customer at $25.

At this point I'm shopping for another provider. My set-up 4yrs ago didn't go well, and now, effectively my second interaction with them isn't going well either.

Semi-related, I should point out that the last two times I've had a customer complaint with both Bell and Rogers their CSRs agreed that I had a valid point and did what was necessary to make it right. And in both interactions I spent less time on hold than for this issue. So I guess TSI is "different" I'm just not convinced it's "in a good way".

I'm open to suggestions as to who might be a better alternative.

Thanks in advance.

-----------------------
Edit: April 4, 2013
I've spoken to Andre and we've sorted this out; I'll be staying with TSI.
At the end of the day, they do care about their customers and reputation and this is a good thing. At this point I'm satisfied with the outcome: my 15meg line is scheduled for next Wednesday.
Thanks very much!
--danwforums
-----------------------

BTC Kevin
join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON

BTC Kevin

Member

said by danwforums:

So as many others noticed, the price drops appeared on the Teksavvy site a while ago.
Last week I checked all the new prices, checked all the fees listed at teksavvy.com and called to change my DSL speed.

Clearly indicated at the web-site, was a "Line Speed Change" charge of $25.
The word 'tier' doesn't appear anywhere, and there is no indication that going from 6meg service to 15meg service is anything other than a change of speed. The "Other Charges" tab of the service I want to buy lists only a line-speed change for $25.

However, the CSR tells me that going from 6 to 15meg is a change of tier and that's $50.
While I'd have no problem paying this if it were indicated clearly up front. I call this a shady bait-and-switch. There's no mention of this, and I suggested that they simply honour the line-change price and update the site to reflect the 'tier-change' pricing for the next customer.

As the CSR couldn't do this, I escalated to a supervisor and suggested that he honour the web price listed of $25. We discussed back and forth for a bit and two things were stated by the supervisor:
1. He could see how I could interpret the site to mean that I was changing speeds and not tiers and did not direct me to a page where tier-change prices were listed. So I believe we have a customer service supervisor who agrees that the customer has a valid point.
2. He then told me in no uncertain terms that he would rather lose me as a customer then honour the listed $25 price. In specific terms, he said that it wasn't worth $25 to keep me as a customer.

This is interesting to me as I have a colleague who earns about $11/yr per referral, so it would appear to me that a little more than every 2yrs someone at TSI values a customer at $25.

At this point I'm shopping for another provider. My set-up 4yrs ago didn't go well, and now, effectively my second interaction with them isn't going well either.

Semi-related, I should point out that the last two times I've had a customer complaint with both Bell and Rogers their CSRs agreed that I had a valid point and did what was necessary to make it right. And in both interactions I spent less time on hold than for this issue. So I guess TSI is "different" I'm just not convinced it's "in a good way".

I'm open to suggestions as to who might be a better alternative.

Thanks in advance.

Ya I know paying 50$ is kinda annoying, I had to pay it to.

But 6/0.8 to a 15/1 is a completely different technology.

One is ADSL Gate Way Access, and the other is ADSL2/2+ Fiber to the Neighborhood.

Although you'd think you are just changing line speeds. you are purchasing a completely different product. ADSL has a theoretical max 8 Mb it doesn't do 15 Mb.
danwforums
join:2013-04-02
Nepean, ON

danwforums

Member

Hi BTC Kevin;

I've no issue with charges -- sure I'd like to pay less for everything, who wouldn't? But that wasn't the problem.

The issue I have is the bait-and-switch tactic and the apparent disregard they have for existing customers.

Had this been listed up-front, had they been honest, or had they simply agreed to charge as listed (and I suggest then update their price list) I would have had no issue.

I expect this sort of behaviour from the Old Boys, not someone claiming to be better.

Thanks.

Mike2009
join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON

Mike2009

Member

Consider yourselves lucky, I paid $90 to move to ADSL2+ when it was first offered by Teksavvy. Just so you know, it's worth it.
pldube
join:2011-06-11
canada

pldube to danwforums

Member

to danwforums
They charge me +20$ for nothing new (same speed) .... 84.95$ total now ...
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato

Member

The issue i would have is that the Supervisor as you said claimed your not worth $25 dollars.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to danwforums

Member

to danwforums
said by danwforums:

Semi-related, I should point out that the last two times I've had a customer complaint with both Bell and Rogers their CSRs agreed that I had a valid point and did what was necessary to make it right. And in both interactions I spent less time on hold than for this issue. So I guess TSI is "different" I'm just not convinced it's "in a good way".

TSI is different in that the operate on extremely tight margins and cannot afford to hand out credits. If you switch to another TPIA, expect their approach in regards to monetary adjustments to be the same.

The big guys on the other hand operate on very large margins and will generally just cave in to a request for a credit adjustment of $50 or less in order to get you off the phone and move on to the next customer.

jmck
formerly 'shaded'
join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON

jmck

Member

the supervisor should have said they can't give out a credit because of margins instead of telling him to go away and he's not worth it.

sounds like someone needs some supervisor training or a new job.
danwforums
join:2013-04-02
Nepean, ON

danwforums to morisato

Member

to morisato
I agree; that's the second half of my re-stated issue: the "disregard they have for existing customers".

Thanks,

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt to BTC Kevin

Premium Member

to BTC Kevin
Lets put website terminology & what the supervisor told you aside for a minute...

These charges are imposed by Bell in the wholesale tariffs... In a way, there are three levels of service offered by wholesale ISP such as TSI.

- Legacy GAS (Gateway Access Service), which is the plain 6/0.8M ADSL1 we've been used to for the past 10 years...
- FTTN ADSL2+, which the tiers are now maximum 15/1M. This is fibre to the neighbourhood, on ADSL2+ technology,
- FTTN VDSL2, which offers 15/10, 25/10 and 50/10, which is similar to ADSL2+ where a remote is in your neighbourhood, but uses different technology and very different modems.

Bell likes to charge for a change in between these levels of services, just like if it was a new order... TekSavvy has to pass this on, or be losing money for a while until they recover this cost. The profit margins on wholesale ISP services are slim, especially now with the capacity rates that they have to pay for their usage on the incumbents network.
Expand your moderator at work

BTC Kevin
join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON

BTC Kevin to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt

Re: [DSL] A paying customer of more than 4yrs is not worth $25

said by HiVolt:

Lets put website terminology & what the supervisor told you aside for a minute...

These charges are imposed by Bell in the wholesale tariffs... In a way, there are three levels of service offered by wholesale ISP such as TSI.

- Legacy GAS (Gateway Access Service), which is the plain 6/0.8M ADSL1 we've been used to for the past 10 years...
- FTTN ADSL2+, which the tiers are now maximum 15/1M. This is fibre to the neighbourhood, on ADSL2+ technology,
- FTTN VDSL2, which offers 15/10, 25/10 and 50/10, which is similar to ADSL2+ where a remote is in your neighbourhood, but uses different technology and very different modems.

Bell likes to charge for a change in between these levels of services, just like if it was a new order... TekSavvy has to pass this on, or be losing money for a while until they recover this cost. The profit margins on wholesale ISP services are slim, especially now with the capacity rates that they have to pay for their usage on the incumbents network.

And I believe Andre or Marc explained on DSLr posts that changing products causes activation, and changing speeds on a product is speed change.

Legacy GAS -> FTTN ADSL2/2+ $50 Activation
Legacy GAS -> FTTN VDSL $50 Activation

FTTN ADSL2/2+ -> Legacy GAS $50 Activation
FTTN ADSL2/2+ -> FTTN VDSL $50 Activation
FTTN ADSL2/2+ -> FTTN ADSL2/2+ $25 Speed change

FTTN VDSL -> Legacy GAS $50 Activation
FTTN VDSL -> FTTN ADSL2/2+ $50 Activation
FTTN VDSL -> FTTN VDSL $25 Speed change

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

Yeah exactly... What a clusterfuck, CRTC just let them do this garbage...
darrylr
join:2003-02-10
Nepean, ON

darrylr

Member

You can't expect them to eat all these fees and still stay in business.

SimplePanda
BSD
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Montreal, QC

SimplePanda to danwforums

Premium Member

to danwforums
Thing everyone should also remember is that these fees are all new and that TSI is still working out the kinks and the processes. If you don't want to pay the tier change fee and you think it was "bait and switch" tell them you don't want to change and ask them to update the web site to make it clearer. It's TSI. They probably will.

TSI isn't out to screw anyone out of their $25. It's just that the fees are complicated, annoying and imposed on them by outsiders and things aren't as clear as they could be.

If sticker shock over $25 is a worry maybe best to wait a month or two until all of this is well in place.
graniterock
Premium Member
join:2003-03-14
London, ON

graniterock to danwforums

Premium Member

to danwforums
Regardless.... the wording is confusing. Hopefully this thread will lead to someone from TSI reworking the wording on the website.

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

said by graniterock:

Regardless.... the wording is confusing. Hopefully this thread will lead to someone from TSI reworking the wording on the website.

Sure, the less confusing language looks like this;

Legacy GAS -> FTTN ADSL2/2+ $50 Activation
Legacy GAS -> FTTN VDSL $50 Activation

FTTN ADSL2/2+ -> Legacy GAS $50 Activation
FTTN ADSL2/2+ -> FTTN VDSL $50 Activation
FTTN ADSL2/2+ -> FTTN ADSL2/2+ $25 Speed change

FTTN VDSL -> Legacy GAS $50 Activation
FTTN VDSL -> FTTN ADSL2/2+ $50 Activation
FTTN VDSL -> FTTN VDSL $25 Speed change

(Just copied from above)

If everybody agrees that this is what it needs to say.. I'll make sure it gets changed...
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to HiVolt

Member

to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

Yeah exactly... What a clusterfuck, CRTC just let them do this garbage...

Well, there is a plausible truck roll to switch the line between DSLAMs and truck rolls are expensive no matter how trivial work order might be.

QuantumPimp
join:2012-02-19

QuantumPimp to danwforums

Member

to danwforums
said by danwforums:

Clearly indicated at the web-site, was a "Line Speed Change" charge of $25.

Now that you have a better explanation do you still feel there was a bait-and-switch as opposed to information missing on the web page?

For a contract to be binding there must be an offer, acceptance, consideration, and an intention to be contractually bound. A web page is not an offer to sell ... it is nothing but advertising.

When you call to place an order it is you making the offer to buy, and the agent agrees to accept the offer. In this case the agent refused your offer based on internal pricing guidelines.

You can't claim this is like the situations we often read where agents accept an offer then someone else from billing comes along later and unilaterally changes the terms (i.e., the consideration). That is illegal and worth a fight. The situation you describe can be stressful, and an inconvenience, but is not illegal.
said by danwforums:

2. He then told me in no uncertain terms that he would rather lose me as a customer then honour the listed $25 price. In specific terms, he said that it wasn't worth $25 to keep me as a customer.

Under stress are you certain you're not putting words in the agents mouth? Just a likely you gave an ultimatum like "$25 for a long time customer or else" and the agent declined. Just checking.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

1 recommendation

yyzlhr

Member

May not be a bait and switch, but the wording is certainly not clear.

Going from 6/512 to 15/10 would meet the definition of a "Line Speed Change" in the literal sense. The average consumer is not expected to know that they're switching between different flavours of DSL. It's hardly surprising someone would be confused and subsequently upset over the way it's worded.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato

Member

i agree wording is misleading as everything is a linespeed change the reason the charge is greater is because its a actual Product change
Sunfox
join:2003-12-14
Stouffville

2 recommendations

Sunfox to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
Maybe you need a little Javascript thing with two pull-down service-type boxes and a dollar total.

"I have:", "I would like:", and "This is what it will cost:".
padenom
join:2008-03-28
Montreal, QC

padenom to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

said by graniterock:

Regardless.... the wording is confusing. Hopefully this thread will lead to someone from TSI reworking the wording on the website.

If everybody agrees that this is what it needs to say.. I'll make sure it gets changed...

Actually they don't only need to reword the other charges section but also general descriptions on the plan descriptions. I checked the 7/1, 10/1 and 15/1 - no where it says anything about it being a different technology or tier.

The above three plans are very effective in telling you how long you need to wait to download a song, video or a movie and the price tag. Nowhere do I see anything about it being different technology. Moreover, it actually has the same paragraph For our DSL customers..... that is there on the 6/0.8 GAS plan!!

So when the OP (or any other non-tech savvy person who doesn't know anything about DSL or xDSL7++) says that all that he wants is a speed change, I think they are right to a certain extent. What is required for Teksavvy is to go and dust the cobwebs on their web site?

PS: Any person who bought their DSL modem from Teksavvy in the last 3-4years would have atleast gotten a Speedtouch 516 which is ADSL2+ capable and from the point-of-view of the user it is just a speed change.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato

Member

Honestly with the Price drop on the Install fee i would Just go and change the Line Speed Cost to $50 for everything rather than have 2 prices it would be simplier and everyone would be able to understand it in plan english changing speed $50 dollars.

QuantumPimp
join:2012-02-19

1 recommendation

QuantumPimp

Member

said by morisato:

Honestly with the Price drop on the Install fee i would Just go and change the Line Speed Cost to $50 for everything rather than have 2 prices it would be simpler and everyone would be able to understand it in plan english changing speed $50 dollars.

Ya, or just say "up to $50" then only charge $25 for simple profile adjustments. Nobody is going to complain when the price charged is less than expected.
geokilla
join:2010-10-04
North York, ON

1 edit

geokilla to yyzlhr

Member

to yyzlhr
said by yyzlhr:

said by danwforums:

Semi-related, I should point out that the last two times I've had a customer complaint with both Bell and Rogers their CSRs agreed that I had a valid point and did what was necessary to make it right. And in both interactions I spent less time on hold than for this issue. So I guess TSI is "different" I'm just not convinced it's "in a good way".

TSI is different in that the operate on extremely tight margins and cannot afford to hand out credits. If you switch to another TPIA, expect their approach in regards to monetary adjustments to be the same.

The big guys on the other hand operate on very large margins and will generally just cave in to a request for a credit adjustment of $50 or less in order to get you off the phone and move on to the next customer.

That is incorrect... Other TPIAs are handling this better than Teksavvy. $5 TPIA to ATPIA... Dry loop fees just as an example. So unless those guys are losing money for every subscriber they have, Teksavvy margins are definitely there.
LanAdmin
join:2010-11-07
Montreal, QC

LanAdmin to danwforums

Member

to danwforums
Speed change between DSL 6, 7, 10, 15 doesn't require any change from client side or Bell side. Same modem. It's only a profile change. The cost is pure profit for Bell.
yyzlhr
join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON

yyzlhr to geokilla

Member

to geokilla
said by geokilla:

said by yyzlhr:

said by danwforums:

Semi-related, I should point out that the last two times I've had a customer complaint with both Bell and Rogers their CSRs agreed that I had a valid point and did what was necessary to make it right. And in both interactions I spent less time on hold than for this issue. So I guess TSI is "different" I'm just not convinced it's "in a good way".

TSI is different in that the operate on extremely tight margins and cannot afford to hand out credits. If you switch to another TPIA, expect their approach in regards to monetary adjustments to be the same.

The big guys on the other hand operate on very large margins and will generally just cave in to a request for a credit adjustment of $50 or less in order to get you off the phone and move on to the next customer.

That is incorrect... Other TPIAs are handling this better than Teksavvy. $5 TPIA to ATPIA... Dry loop fees just as an example. So unless those guys are losing money for every subscriber they have, Teksavvy margins are definitely there.

The fee you're quoting is not relevant in this case, and Teksavvy will be charging the same amount in the same scenario that you quoted.

My point is that TPIAs would be hardpressed to provide any sort of monetary compensation to customers unless it's absolutely clear that the TPIA provider and only the TPIA provider has wronged the customer. Aside from the OP's scenario, this fact has been clearly demonstrated by the fact that Teksavvy and other TPIAs don't provide provide credits during service outages.

This is in contrast to the incumbent providers where monetary compensation can be provided even in cases where the provider is not at fault. This is due to the fact that incumbents enjoy significantly larger profit margins and would prefer to simply bribe you to stop complaining after a certain amount of bickering.

TypeS
join:2012-12-17
London, ON

TypeS to geokilla

Member

to geokilla
said by geokilla:

said by yyzlhr:

said by danwforums:

Semi-related, I should point out that the last two times I've had a customer complaint with both Bell and Rogers their CSRs agreed that I had a valid point and did what was necessary to make it right. And in both interactions I spent less time on hold than for this issue. So I guess TSI is "different" I'm just not convinced it's "in a good way".

TSI is different in that the operate on extremely tight margins and cannot afford to hand out credits. If you switch to another TPIA, expect their approach in regards to monetary adjustments to be the same.

The big guys on the other hand operate on very large margins and will generally just cave in to a request for a credit adjustment of $50 or less in order to get you off the phone and move on to the next customer.

That is incorrect... Other TPIAs are handling this better than Teksavvy. $5 TPIA to ATPIA... Dry loop fees just as an example. So unless those guys are losing money for every subscriber they have, Teksavvy margins are definitely there.

No what you're saying is false. The only ones that really offers the clear better value are EBOX & Distributel, everyone else has their trade offs for including dry loop and waiving other fees.

Acanac rate-limits at peak hours.

Start doesn't offer unlimited above 6Meg on either technology and most of their capped packages are more expensive than TekSavvy's either in price or the data quota allowed.

There's CIKTel, but there's posts of congestion at peak hours that isn't local, nothing confirmed really since there's only 8 total reviews for them.

And a lot of the DSL third party providers have still kept the $95-100 activation on ADSL2+ and VDSL.

So no, only a few other providers are in general cheaper if you look at entire picture.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato to LanAdmin

Member

to LanAdmin
said by LanAdmin:

Speed change between DSL 6, 7, 10, 15 doesn't require any change from client side or Bell side. Same modem. It's only a profile change. The cost is pure profit for Bell.

That is not always true a dsl 6 Could be co-fed on a DSlam goes to 7/10/15 would need to be moved to a different slam in the co at a minimum if not switched to a remote with a Stinger or 7330 in it.

For example a good friend of mine was fed by a Dslam from his co for about 3 years he upgraded his speed and magically he is now fed by a flsam on a different OE, That tells you Yes even though hes still co fed they did have to move wires and a truck roll to his co was required.