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Frodo

join:2006-05-05

2 recommendations

reply to aurgathor

Re: Windows 8 Blamed for Biggest PC Shipment Plunge Ever

Just bought a PC a month ago. I went with the crowd sentiment and got one with Win 7 Pro 64. I don't know if it's the hardware or the software, but between the two, I like it very much.

I stuck a virtual XP on the computer (XP mode) so now, I got a new Win 7, the XP I always had, and faster hardware (I7-3770). Last PC was a Pentium 4 from 2003.

From what I hear, Win7 is Vista fixed whereas Win8 sounded like a new tangent that was going to have quirks. So, I voted with my wallet for Win 7 pro 64. I like it a lot, especially the UAC and the integrity levels.



aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1

Smart choice.



Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

I have 2 PCs that has windows Vista on it. Seldom, if ever had any problems with them. Now they are aging. I had two other windows Vista PCs that got replaced by Windows 8 laptops.
So currently I have 3 windows 8 laptops, and have had them for about 2 months now. Haven't had any major issue with them.
Hence I can't see all the hate for 8.
Nor could I understand the hate for Vista.

I think one thing is, some businesses invest a great deal of time and money to test out a new os with the programs they have to run. To see if there is any compatibility issues.
Windows 7 isn't that old. Granted underneath Win 8 is pretty close, if not the same as win 7. So there should be few if any compatibility issues.

Also what is the cost or was the cost of an enterprise upgrade from 7 to 8?
I'm sure it could be pricey if you have 20 or more PCs.
Some businesses like to get their money's worth before changing out.
Same with some people.

Edit:
The plus side is that there maybe some decent PC sales soon.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.



DarkSithPro

join:2005-02-12
Tempe, AZ
kudos:2

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to aurgathor

Perhaps the PC market is fully matured
Perhaps money is tighter these days
Perhaps tablets are taking over the menial and entertainment tasks PC's do
Perhaps computers aren't getting faster than they used to
Perhaps software still hasn't caught up to the hardware
Perhaps it's all of these

When I was a kid we all wanted a desktop to play Quake, Doom, Red Alert, ect. Now you ask a kid when he wants and it's a smartphone, console, or a tablet.

Computers just aren't cool anymore. All the arguments in here are probably from people that are from the last generation of thought, trying to problem solve a generational issue. Face it mom and dad, you're ideas and logic, when it comes to technology is not what the new generation wants...



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to aurgathor

said by aurgathor:

said by Octavean:

As for the base prediction of -7.7% with respect to actual -13.9%, how exactly does one get a hard number of what percentage Windows 8 would be responsible for? You can't simply assume that the predicted percentage would be accurate and attribute the rest to Windows 8.

Obviously, getting 100% accurate numbers is nigh impossible, but there there are several ways one can validate the numbers to some extent.

The first one is to take a look at their predictions for previous quarters, and see how well they match with actual numbers, and if there is a discrepancy, what are explanations for those. They can't predict natural disasters and their effects, for one.

The other approach would be to examine the return rates on comparable Win7 and Win8 devices, and draw some conclusion from that. However, I'm not sure if manufacturers publish those numbers.

said by aurgathor:

Inside the article they do mention that Win8 wasn't the only thing at play. Based on the predicted (-7.7%) vs actual (-13.9%) numbers, Win8 was responsible almost half of the decline, which sounds about right.

I read both articles and neither one of them attempted to make assertions that Windows 8 was responsible for the discrepancy in its entirety (or even majority) between the predicted numbers and the actual numbers.

Probably for good reason, such as the need to support such assertions,...

BTW, it was a rhetorical question.


Michail
Premium
join:2000-08-02
Boynton Beach, FL
kudos:1
reply to DarkSithPro

said by DarkSithPro:

Perhaps the PC market is fully matured
Perhaps money is tighter these days
Perhaps tablets are taking over the menial and entertainment tasks PC's do
Perhaps computers aren't getting faster than they used to
Perhaps software still hasn't caught up to the hardware
Perhaps it's all of these

When I was a kid we all wanted a desktop to play Quake, Doom, Red Alert, ect. Now you ask a kid when he wants and it's a smartphone, console, or a tablet.

Computers just aren't cool anymore. All the arguments in here are probably from people that are from the last generation of thought, trying to problem solve a generational issue. Face it mom and dad, you're ideas and logic, when it comes to technology is not what the new generation wants...

All true, but I see many kids into actual desktops still. It's amazing what a 10 year old will mod/hack in order to play minecraft.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

said by Michail:

said by DarkSithPro:

Perhaps the PC market is fully matured
Perhaps money is tighter these days
Perhaps tablets are taking over the menial and entertainment tasks PC's do
Perhaps computers aren't getting faster than they used to
Perhaps software still hasn't caught up to the hardware
Perhaps it's all of these

When I was a kid we all wanted a desktop to play Quake, Doom, Red Alert, ect. Now you ask a kid when he wants and it's a smartphone, console, or a tablet.

Computers just aren't cool anymore. All the arguments in here are probably from people that are from the last generation of thought, trying to problem solve a generational issue. Face it mom and dad, you're ideas and logic, when it comes to technology is not what the new generation wants...

All true, but I see many kids into actual desktops still. It's amazing what a 10 year old will mod/hack in order to play minecraft.

A very valid point for some kids indeed,....

Anecdotally, I can say the teen and preteens I know tend to favor their ARM based phones and tablets even if they have their own PC. And in addition to that they tend to have more then one ARM device resulting in a two to one ratio,...or something similar,....

I'm also seeing that some younger people may have their first computing experience on a nontraditional computing device like a smart phone or tablet rather then a traditional PC,....

Getting them when they are young is a good stratagem for lifelong loyalty,...


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Most people's computers have far more processing power in it than they could hope to use, even in two years. The vast majority of people only browse the web, check email, etc. A dual-core CPU could do that and a lot more.

Today's modern computers have at the very least a quad-core CPU and probably about 6 GBs of RAM. Again, most people won't even come close to using all of that hardware.

For instance, I have a Core i5 Quad-Core CPU here. Most of the time, even with my work load my CPU's average usage according to Process Hacker hovers at around 15% usage per CPU.

Video cards are the one piece of hardware that seems to go obsolete faster than any other hardware in a computer.

People do often complain about how their computer is slow but it's not caused by the CPU or RAM, quite simply we're running into the biggest bottleneck in today's PCs. The hard disk drive. It is the single most limited component in today's PC. Take a SSD can put it into even a lowly Intel Core 2 Duo-based machine and watch it take off like a rocket!
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog



Vamp
5c077
Premium
join:2003-01-28
MD
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

Windows 8 is down right awful. Practically every task takes atleast 2-3 more steps to complete, it's damn near impossible to manage different open windows, "Apps"? really?, Now computers can ship with even more malware and junkware.

At this point it would far easier to teach a new person how to use linux than windows 8.

--
75/35 FIOS || MSN Msgr: scott001^gmail_com



nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
kudos:7
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

2 recommendations

said by Vamp:

At this point it would far easier to teach a new person how to use linux than windows 8.

Good (and probably true).

Did Windows 8 bring in many new mobile device user? Unlikely - it is too little too late for those users.

Did Windows 8 annoy many desktop users? Probably.

Is Windows 8 the cause of the PC shipment drop? Not the entire cause, but it is very hard to judge the effect on sales with so much else going on.

But I think the Microsoft mistake is more serious than that. Remember Sun Computers? They thought that they were selling server hardware and software. Some of us tried to point out their folly, but they learned too late.

The problem for Sun, was this: If the people ordering servers are not using Sun software on their desktops, they are far less likely to order Sun hardware and software for their servers.

Microsoft is going to have a similar problem. If it pushes desktop users to linux, then guess what server hardware and software those desktop users are going to order in the future?
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 12.3; firefox 20.0

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

Some companies are already offering it.
»www.alienware.com/ubuntu/


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

Yeah, but that alienware bling-and-LEDs thing is not a corporate desktop PC in a million years.


BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

Never said it was, clearly that is more of point of example of a nix gaming package. If you look at the picture it's actually one of those micro cases, almost like a console, and wasn't a full tower with fans and case lights.



BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to aurgathor

said by aurgathor:

“The reaction to Windows 8 is real,” Jay Chou, an IDC analyst, said to The Wall Street Journal.

Indeed, real bad. That's what you get when you artificially hobble your OS with a GIU designed for smart phones and tablets.


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC4IDJrz···bedded#!


quote:
Windows 8 is of course the first operating system Microsoft has ever launched that has a continuous user experience across mobile and the desktop PC.
This is where Windows 8 fails! There should be a clear delineation between the two platforms, they are two very different pieces of hardware that are used in two very different ways. Forcing what is essentially a touch-driven user experience (Windows 8) onto a traditional keyboard and mouse driven platform was and is proving to be an epic disaster.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog


trparky
Apple... YUM
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:2

Betanews.com: So is Windows 8 Microsoft's ‘biggest failure ever’?

One user's response over on Betanews is this...

quote:
"Personally I think that’s more than a tad harsh. Windows 8 was inspired because Microsoft saw where technology was going and wanted to get there fast. It just may not have chosen the best route in its scramble to embrace tablets and touch."

Sadly, I have to agree with the gist of Mr. Tonner's statement. Microsoft seems to be casting about wildly for something - anything - that can replicate the Apple-style mojo. This isn't a new phenomenon by any means, either. Gates was obsessed with Steve Jobs for years, but Microsoft was at its best when it stopped trying to beat Apple at its own game. Here's the thing that Microsoft seems to have forgotten: nobody wants them to be Apple, or Google, or anyone but Microsoft. What I mean by that is a large company with lots of support resources that creates powerful, extensible and customizable software (and hardware!) that's designed around function rather than fashion. Unfortunately, in their new-found desperation Microsoft has allowed some Apple-esque (and shrill) voices to infiltrate the choir. Where once we had taskbars and start buttons we now have "ribbons" and "charms". We've went from a toolbox to a jewelery box - and it makes no sense on any level.

But to the core question: is Windows 8 the darkest moment for Microsoft? I think it is, because even Windows ME was recognizable and usable despite the fact it was essentially a fork of Windows 95. And Bob? It was a lark, an experiment - an early attempt at a highly humanized UI, really. I don't think Microsoft ever expected it to do that well, but I think they were hoping it might be popular with those still intimidated by computers. It was an attempt to pull in those last holdouts to PC ownership. Windows 8..is something altogether new. Its Microsoft's attempt to make the PC into a smartphone. They have almost no traction in mobile, so their trying to leverage their desktop monopoly to turn PC users into mobile users. The walled garden, the limited touch interface, the forced integration with Microsoft WindowsLiveOutlook HotmailNetwork or whatever their calling it this week...it all reeks of a company determined to transform a platform it dominates into the shape of one that it doesn't. And the consumer is having none of it, thanks very much. We buy a box with a keyboard to put on our desks because that's how we get things done. Touch is rubbish for anything but simple games, basic paint programs and light web surfing. Forcing a touch UI onto devices that don't support it goes beyond arrogant - its downright demented. Its like their begging Google to release a Chrome OS that does windows better than Windows. Google knows the PC is still a lucrative market, at least if you can use it to push cloud services. If Microsoft keeps rowing against the tide on the PC desktop, their going to find themselves up the creek without a paddle. The real problem is that not only is Windows 8 a poor desktop OS, its not all that great on a pure touch device either. The endlessly side-scrolling UI with its bland and confusing tiles, limited windowing and all the other shortcomings will insure that Surface and ultrabooks continue to gather dust on the shelves of retailers. It doesn't have to be this way, however. Microsoft still has time to reverse course if they do it now. Personally I hope they do. The beta phase for Windows 8 couldn't have made it any clearer: all most of us asked for was a tuned and perfected Windows 7 with some of the added utility that Windows 8 provided (kernal tweaks, improved copy dialogs, task management, default programs, etc.). Many also begged for some of the really handy XP/Vista functions that had been hidden (Quick Launch, a working search function, etc) to be restored. Nobody is interested in putting their desktop or their PC's data in the cloud except a handful of Google zealots - by now that should be painfully obvious. I feel completely confident in speaking for the majority of Windows users when I say to Microsoft:

* Give us the choice of which environment (desktop or Metro) that we wish to log into by default.

* Restore critical UI components like the start menu, Quick Launch and the working and infinitely better designed search function from XP. Allow us to disable the utterly useless command bar in Windows Explorer. And for heaven's sake, let us turn off the nightmare known as full-row select!!!

* If you've not going to fix the broken Network and Sharing Center in Windows 7 and 8 then bring back the one from Vista which actually worked.

* Either allow Metro apps to be opened in desktop windows, or just give up on the stupid things. Their completely inferior to their desktop counterparts anyway and the design language is appalling - if you can even call it "design'.

* Stop hiring Left Coast art school dropouts to design your interfaces. They don't know s*#t about highly functional computing environments. Start actually listening to the criticism from your Microsoft professionals and highly technical users as well as the fanboy praise. Less wishful thinking, more actual thinking.

* Go right ahead and provide all that Skydrive and other cloud stuff...as long as its completely optional. The day I can't log into my OS without creating a Microsoft account is the day that Windows is dead to me. So say we all.

* Reimagine your touch UI completely. What you have now serves no one well. Make full-color iconography or actual pictures the preferred symbology for apps. Scrap the ridiculous ghetto Coverflow mechanic the start screen currently uses. Optimize auto-arrangement of tiles and other elements to fit on a single screen. The basic idea of live tiles, aka gadgets, makes a world of sense and has since the Vista sidebar. Bring back Aero or something like it - give us back our beautiful Windows experience. Make tiles adapt to themes. Heck, bring back the sidebar and let us put live tiles on it! That would be incredible.
I have to agree with this guy's comment. He nails it on the head.
--
Tom
Boycott AT&T uVerse! | Tom's Android Blog


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Really? PC sales, including Macs, were in decline for at least a year before Windows 8 was released. That's not a trend that Microsoft started. Both continue to decline, despite the "separation" of iOS and OS X that some tout as the way Microsoft should have gone with Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8. Sales numbers show that's the wrong way to go.

Until Windows 8, Microsoft had no presence in the mobile space, having underestimated how quickly mobile devices would grow. Continuing to evolve the desktop from Windows 7 doesn't make sense business wise if sales are declining.

The future is mobile, specifically convergence of the mobile and PC spaces. The dedicated desktop PC as it exists today will be gone within 10 years in terms of new product sales. It will be replaced by dockable or portable designs that are multi-purpose, because that's the message that the market is sending to tech companies. The desktop UI will be gone as well, with all of its functions launchable from the Modern UI, which itself will evolve into a multitasking environment.

This right here....

Mobile computing really has been a key. When it came to replacing an old laptop, I opted for an android tablet with a keyboard dock. Yes, I spent less and I got something that is even better. I still have my work laptop and my desktop, and I wanted something even more portable.

I think that more and more people are going to be looking at devices like this. I know all the Microsoft haters are going to blame Windows 8, but that won't affect sales. These sales were being affected prior to Windows 8 release.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to trparky

All I can say is that guy is NOT using the Win 8 I am using.

What's "Bob"? W2000?

I can choose which environment I log into...yeah, I had to install Start8 to do that...but so?

I have a Start menu, Quick Launch. Search I use AgentRansack...but I agree that it would be nice to have XP search back but with the W2000 GUI ONLY not that awful XP GUI!

What is he talking about "useless command bar in Explorer"? I have gripes about Explorer in both Vista and Win 7 and now Win 8...give me back XP Explorer and get rid of the god awful ribbon.

What is "full row select"?

It's news to me that Network and Sharing Center in Win 8 is broken! I think it is GREAT! Where it is broken is XP. Networking is one area where Win 8 is a HUGE improvement over XP. As for the one in Vista that was no better than in XP...awful.

And PLEASE no sidebars! I DETEST that junky, messy crap that clutters up my clean screen. And Live tiles are the WORST THING in regards to Win 8. Why does he like that crap so Microsoft can spy on me all the time? Get of rid tiles entirely on the desktop. If one chooses to boot to the desktop every time (as I do with Start8) one should NEVER EVER have to visit Metro side. Yet I have to for some things and that is what I HATE.

As long as I can stay on the Desktop, Win 8 is pretty good and it looks much nicer than Win 7. It looks like XP.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8

said by Mele20:

What's "Bob"?

Bob is Bob.


javaMan
The Dude abides.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-15
San Luis Obispo, CA

said by dave:

said by Mele20:

What's "Bob"?

Bob is Bob.

And what a disaster he was.
--
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness. . . Isa. 5:20

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Well, I disagree on 'disaster'. They shipped Bob, all of us techies had a good laugh and thought it was silly, and Microsoft gave up on the program. One cancelled non-mainstream project doesn't equate to a 'disaster' for a large corporation: I think no customers were lost because of Bob.

Windows 8, on the other hand, has the potential to be an actual 'disaster' if it ends up eroding the customer base. I think the jury's still out on that one, and perhaps 8.1 will recover from the misstep.



javaMan
The Dude abides.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-15
San Luis Obispo, CA

1 edit

said by dave:

. . .

Windows 8, on the other hand, has the potential to be an actual 'disaster' if it ends up eroding the customer base. I think the jury's still out on that one, and perhaps 8.1 will recover from the misstep.

Agreed. I haven't bought 8 and from the feedback so far I probably won't. I just don't see an advantage. On the other hand, if there were enough core improvements, such as the enhanced file management capabilities I've heard about, that might mitigate the nuisances of the new UI. It will be interesting to see how they respond with the next release.
--
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness. . . Isa. 5:20


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1

There are actually a rather nice list of improvements under the hood, but that's much less visible than the UI.
--
Wacky Races 2012!



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to aurgathor

Near as I can tell from the latest Windows Blue AKA Windows 8.1 leaks, it wont stop those people who are up in arms over Windows 8 from being,.....up in arms.

Its early yet so this could change by the time Windows 8.1 is released. Its just not looking all that different right now.



javaMan
The Dude abides.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-15
San Luis Obispo, CA
reply to aurgathor

said by aurgathor:

There are actually a rather nice list of improvements under the hood, but that's much less visible than the UI.

That's what I've heard, I just can't decide whether they are all really worth the hassle.
--
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness. . . Isa. 5:20


markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:5

The coupled Win 7 and current hardware is "good enough" for nearly everything. Windows 8 really depends on the new Xbox and Windows Phone/Tablet penetration. If the other areas succeed, having that same GUI on the rarely used dusty box in the corner will also be a success when we look far back on 2012; just like we in 2012 consider Windows 95 to be a success when in fact it was "Microsoft's Disaster" of it's day. It is a huge gamble, though, for Microsoft could wind up not getting foothold in the other spaces while attrition takes out the PC (hasted for some due to Windows 8, hard numbers still unknown).
--
Show off that hardware: join Team Discovery and Team Helix


Kerodo

join:2004-05-08
reply to aurgathor

What I don't quite understand is why Apple doesn't slash prices right now and pick up a huge chunk of the desktop and laptop market while people are so dissatisfied with Win 8 machines. They could do that for a year and then slowly raise prices back up again. But maybe they can't. I don't see any indication of it at all.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

said by Kerodo:

What I don't quite understand is why Apple doesn't slash prices right now and pick up a huge chunk of the desktop and laptop market while people are so dissatisfied with Win 8 machines. They could do that for a year and then slowly raise prices back up again. But maybe they can't. I don't see any indication of it at all.

That's not Apple's business model. They don't want to be associated with the idea of "cheap". Their angle is to give the perception of higher then or above average quality for which one must pay a premium for.

Meanwhile the hardware under the hood is the same thing or essentially the same thing as other PC hardware and tablets. Outer construction may use better materials like aluminum (rather then plastic) and sturdier construction but the value of that is debatable IMO.

OS X and iOS is what makes the products truelly unique.

Kerodo

join:2004-05-08

Yeah, that makes sense. I guess they are most interested in appealing to a certain market segment, rather than capturing market share.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to dave

said by dave:

said by Mele20:

What's "Bob"?

Bob is Bob.

Thanks. That sounds awful.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson