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Anonymous_
Anonymous
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join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

Anonymous_ to antdude

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to antdude

Re: House passes controversial "cybersecurity" bill CI

said by antdude:

»arstechnica.com/tech-pol ··· 27-vote/

"... in 288-127 vote
Almost half of Democrats support info-sharing bill despite Obama's veto threat..."

I sure George Washington would not be too happy about this

also please note Congress is the opposite of progress.

Sith HMP
I Did What?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-25
Bloomington, IL

3 edits

Sith HMP to Ken1943

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to Ken1943
Who exactly decides whether or not something I am doing is "wrong" or not and to what degree?

Side note: "quiche" is on that list. I knew there was something off about that stuff. So bad, evidently, it's on there twice.

Edit; 192.47.242.7 is on that list. Where does it lead? I'm afraid to look or I will end up......aww damn.

goalieskates
Premium Member
join:2004-09-12
land of big

goalieskates to Ken1943

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to Ken1943
said by Ken1943:

People with nothing to hide don't have to be concerned.

Anyone who can say that doesn't remember the old Soviet bloc countries and the "re-education" camps.
OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17

OZO

Premium Member

It was far away and in the US nobody cares about another countries. But here is example from our own history - McCarthyism.

chrisretusn
Retired
Premium Member
join:2007-08-13
Philippines

chrisretusn to goalieskates

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to goalieskates
said by goalieskates:

said by Ken1943:

People with nothing to hide don't have to be concerned.

Anyone who can say that doesn't remember the old Soviet bloc countries and the "re-education" camps.

So you remember?

Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium Member
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Blackbird to Sith HMP

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to Sith HMP
said by Sith HMP:

Who exactly decides whether or not something I am doing is "wrong" or not and to what degree? ...

And therein lies the trap! If the powers-that-be can get citizens to give up their foundational, Constitutional right to speak free from general official snooping and harassment with respect to a certain set of "wrong" or "suspicious" crisis-driven words used today, those word lists can (and will) be easily expanded tomorrow. Every time political administrations change, the new dominant powers add their own words to the lists, reflecting their hostility toward members roughly grouped among the opposition. The comb rakes back and forth... but the overall power-grabbing and intrusiveness only grow regardless - the process never gets rolled back as the new "leaders" come to town. Until liberals and conservatives all come to realize this whole business is ultimately destructive to the freedom of both groups, they'll be fodder for clever authoritarian manipulation of the crises of the day. Either the citizens will keep the government in chains or the government will place the citizens in chains. Chains, whether fashioned by Fascists, Communists, dictators, Socialists, Imperialists, or whatever "ism" rises to power will remain chains, regardless.

ashrc4
Premium Member
join:2009-02-06
australia

ashrc4 to antdude

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to antdude
This topic has brought me back to post.
"Fear of the unknown" seems to be prevailing once again.
The timeline examples only compound the fear, it's knowing the path forward and being to harmonize and explain well the intentions of such greater governance that stymies the rational debate.
Much to do.......cheers.
ash

goalieskates
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join:2004-09-12
land of big

goalieskates to chrisretusn

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to chrisretusn
said by chrisretusn:

said by goalieskates:

said by Ken1943:

People with nothing to hide don't have to be concerned.

Anyone who can say that doesn't remember the old Soviet bloc countries and the "re-education" camps.

So you remember?

Indeed I do.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

1 recommendation

StuartMW to ashrc4

Premium Member

to ashrc4
said by ashrc4:

"Fear of the unknown" seems to be prevailing once again.

Perhaps. My fear is of the "known". It is known that gummints at every time and in every country work to increase their power. That is historical fact.

You either have freedom or a police state. Any mixture is unstable and will drift one way or another. Again history shows the probable course.

The same ideas will lead to the same result.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA

NormanS

MVM

I wonder if the Roman senate had this debate when Gaius Julius Caesar brought his army across the Rubicon River ...

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

Well the argument is always the same.

The current actions will not lead to Totalitarianism this time. The same ideas and measures won't lead to the same effects, as they have in the past, somehow. One must just "believe" or have "faith" that they won't.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to antdude

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to antdude
Apparently CISPA might be DOA in the Senate.

»arstechnica.com/tech-pol ··· -senate/

I thought the one comment from a person on ARS was pretty funny.
quote:
They will be back. Except this time it will be called the "Defending and Enhancing Patriot Rights Provision and Abolish Communism Treatise" or the DERP-ACT. Anyone who doesn't vote for it is not a patriot, supports communism, and doesn't want to "enhance" our rights... also they drown puppies.

fatness
subtle

join:2000-11-17
fishing

fatness to antdude

to antdude
said by antdude:

»arstechnica.com/tech-pol ··· 27-vote/

"... in 288-127 vote
Almost half of Democrats support info-sharing bill despite Obama's veto threat..."

Here's the actual quote from the article, which (surprise) is a bit more informative:

The United States House of Representatives approved the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act (CISPA) by a comfortable 288 to 127 margin. Almost half of the House's Democrats joined 196 Republicans in supporting the measure.


Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav to antdude

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to antdude
Great thread. The terrorists keep winning. Gazillions of dollars diverted from social programs and in general to keep the US the top country of the world, to making more and more a police state and where politicians bank on fear to push forward policies. As the US successfully bankrupted the Russians in the Cold War (and if not for their mafia govt take over of the oil industry would have crumbled further). Of course this is a myopic outsiders view. As for the Romans, they did something extraordinary. They promised ipso facto to abolish slavery if you help defend your country. They created the common man and the common good. Then they eventually imploded. The US started off with great ideals, and I fear implosion is imminent. I dont have any solutions but I dont thing were going in the right direction. Up here in Canada, the good side of fighting terrorisim is that we finally have xray machines at airports that work, we have employees that are not all family related, we dont have baggage handlers rifling through our stuff (I hope), we have applied common sense approaches (not allowed to put luggage on a plane if you dont intend to travel on it) etc etc. We have ports that have proper inspection equipment. In other words we have put in place measures we said we had on paper but never really had. We have put in place measures and equipment that help step every day crime. Its not all bad I guess. I understand the need to be able to keep up with technology exploits of criminals as well.
Overall though, when you have such great ideals and then you house detainees off US soil to avoid US laws and keep people imprisoned forever with no conviction, you lose credibility. When you have presidents sanctioning torture, you lose credibility. When you call kidnapping, rendition, and or deliver people to those conducting torture and murder, you lose credibility. When you give your soldiers the right to go against fellow americans on US soil, you lose credibility. So all the reasonable skeptical people here wondering about their own rights and how far things will go should be concerned.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
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San Jose, CA
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NormanS

MVM

I can't say I disagree with any of that; but I can't think of any Democracy/Republic in history which lasted over 200 years. Greece and Rome both imploded. I expect that, at some point, some U.S. general will lead his troops across our Rubicon (our Posse Comitatus Act).

fatness
subtle

join:2000-11-17
fishing

fatness

said by NormanS:

I expect that, at some point, some U.S. general will lead his troops across our Rubicon (our Posse Comitatus Act).

I think there's about 0 chance of that. There's too much security and money in being a general, and the idea of a general leading troops against the government is mostly a fantasy among people who don't like the current president. When a president of the other party is elected the fantasy will go away, and generals will still be generals the way they are. I think what we're more likely to see is what we see now --- individuals and small groups making attacks.

Anav, that's a very good post. I don't know whether it was out of utter fear or just opportunism but the US government started viewing and treating the US population as suspects when the 2 planes hit the towers. Too many people supported the government doing it initially, and it'll never be undone.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
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1 edit

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NormanS

MVM

If you are thinking of a general going against the government, you are probably right,

But your follow-on comment about our government viewing the people as "suspects" is worrisome. The Posse Comitatus Act prevents the use of Federal troops against U.S. citizens, and going against the Posse Comitatus Act is right in line with that famous Claude Rains line: "Round up the usual suspects". This would not be beyond some future president worried about "the children".

Some thought the younger Bush would be, "that one". Others think president Obama will be, "that one".

I think it will be "that one" who is in power when the media has whipped people into a state of fearing their eccentric neighbors more than anything else.

Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium Member
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS

Anav

Premium Member

Im allowed one per quarter

For better or worse I have started watching VICE. It almost makes one think of not having kids with whats going in places like India and Pakistan and even Spain and Greece. Who would have thunk that an org like Golden Dawn would have any traction in Europe etc etc. The economic meltdown has created a lot of pressure on much of the civilized world.......... The sowing of the age of economics solely for the purpose of greed vice some sort of balance with social justice, is showing what the reaping effects will be and they are not pretty.