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AZinOH

join:2007-04-25
Swanton, OH
kudos:1

Paint-What Went Wrong?

The interior of the house is being painted for the first time since it was new (16 years). I know nothing about painting and I'm not doing the work...a group of friends are and I'm not sure how much they know about this work.

They're using a good quality paint (Dutch Boy from Menards) and they started rolling it on the ceiling this morning. As it it drying, several large areas are beginning to chip and peel in the living room and hall, but not in the kitchen (strangely enough). The windows were open and the temp in the house is about 60F. Did they put it on too thick? too thin? is there prep that they should've done but didn't? Am guessing that they will want to scrape the affected areas after it dries completely and paint them again. Any advice I can give them?

AZ


Pacrat
Old and Cranky
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-10
Cortland, OH
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
Sounds to me like the ceilings have never been painted before and really needed to be primered before painting. A good primer coat is quite necessary on "virgin" surfaces. Those "one-step" paint/primer paints are okay for a previously painted surface but not reliable for bare surfaces.
--
Keep your eye on the ball, your shoulder to the wheel, your nose to the grindstone, and your ear to the ground. Now, try to work in that position!!!

AZinOH

join:2007-04-25
Swanton, OH
kudos:1
It was painted when new...it wasn't a bare surface.


SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:4
reply to AZinOH
After 16 years, the ceiling can accumulate a lot of dirt, grease, etc. That's not a very good surface for paint to adhere to. A good cleaning should be done before painting

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to AZinOH
What kind of finish on the ceiling? Can you post some pics?

AZinOH

join:2007-04-25
Swanton, OH
kudos:1
Sorry-no pics. I can say it is not a smooth surface. Someone called it "flattened popcorn"...but I don't know what that means.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
If it's popcorn then it had probably never been painted. That type of ceiling is not usually painted when new.

AZinOH

join:2007-04-25
Swanton, OH
kudos:1
said by robbin:

If it's popcorn then it had probably never been painted. That type of ceiling is not usually painted when new.

That makes sense. Now the question becomes...can the situation be salvaged since the whole ceiling has a coat of paint some of which is adhering and some that isn't?

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
My guess is they didn't get a good bond with the texture. Hard to tell what will happen when they start scraping. They will be in the soft, unadhered area. Best thing to do with popcorn ceilings which have never been painted is to remove it. Once it's painted the job becomes much more difficult. And now having to match the old finish is also a problem.


dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to AZinOH
#1) I have a hard time seeing 'Dutch Boy' and 'quality paint' together.

#2) Did they use any form of primer first? I always recommend primer - Kilz or Zinser will definitely help fresh paint adhere.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
I think the problem is not the paint adhering but that as the paint dried it pulled the texture off of the ceiling in places.


Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to AZinOH
If the existing paint is oil based, water based paint might not stick, especially if it was gloss. There might be a special primer available to make it work though.

Sounds like you have kind of a mess now though, what with flaking, half stuck paint all over...


dennismurphy
Put me on hold? I'll put YOU on hold
Premium
join:2002-11-19
Parsippany, NJ
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to robbin
said by robbin:

I think the problem is not the paint adhering but that as the paint dried it pulled the texture off of the ceiling in places.

I would think a decent coat would 'seal in' those bits ... If the texture were that fragile, you'd find bits of it all in the roller?

Reason #864 why I prefer flat, non-textured ceilings!

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to AZinOH
Textured ceilings are the builder's way of hiding a crappy drywall taping job.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by MaynardKrebs:

Textured ceilings are the builder's way of hiding a crappy drywall taping job.

Yeah I don't get those builders.

I finished my first tape job ever in my basement.
Even if I know where the joints are located, I can't see them (And I can spot joints everywhere else in people's houses/condos).

Then again I did spend a good week and half layering and sanding. (which is a ton of time).


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to robbin
They sell rollers for popcorn ceilings. It's just hairier or bushier (lack of a better word). I've never had issues, while people I know had the same situation as the OP because they just slop the paint on.

1. Wash it down with warm/hot water
2. Preferably, wash down with TSP then rinse well. This will slightly etch the previous paint, even if difficult high-gloss.
3. Prime.
4. Paint.

Painted, not painted, it doesn't matter. What you are after is proper chemical bonding. The above will provide that. The result is only as good as the prep work you put into it, as with any paint job. For something not painted in over 15 years I wouldn't skip the TSP.

I normally only use TSP in kitchens and bathrooms, a warm wash everywhere else. But I also use it on jobs that are very aged like yours or where there is a very high gloss.

Not sure what I would do now. No choice but to scrape it (if you are keeping it), but with popcorn in the way, that is one b*tch of a job now. Think I would get some sort of abrasive (sand paper) then with a scrub-sponge (like a 3M Scotch-Brite) and use warm water w/ TSP peel/scrape what will come off. Rinse it off well after you leave it on a bit to etch whatever is there. What doesn't come off just leave it. Then go in with the primer (with the *proper* roller for popcorn).

Also, I have always seen popcorn painted. Not sure why someone here states it's not painted when there is no pic to see it. But anyhow, 15 years ago and now is a big diff in paint technology (chemicals), could even be some sort of incompatible coat on what you have now, thus the peel. Again, an etch with TSP and good primer will fix that situation.

All comes down to prep work.


mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
reply to AZinOH
I have a special roller for popcorn ceilings.

It's made of foam and has many slots cut into the foam brush. It also pulls off some the loose popcorn. Works great.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to hm
said by hm :

Also, I have always seen popcorn painted. Not sure why someone here states it's not painted when there is no pic to see it.
All comes down to prep work.

The textured ceilings in my house was not painted. When the house interior was repainted then the ceilings were painted. No flaking at all.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
That's actually the best thing about popcorn ceilings. They were not painted. All you have to do is fill a spray bottle up with water and mist them a few times and then take a drywall knife and it comes off easily.


Icarus
CHAOS RULES
Premium,Mod
join:2000-11-08
Off Center
kudos:1
reply to AZinOH
Ceiling texture out of the bag is essentially whitewash and vermiculite. A good installer will mix the bag with paint. An installer cutting corners and cheaping out will mix with water. Guess which one sticks and can be easily re painted?
--
Just cause you got the monkey off your back doesn't mean the circus has left town.
Team Helix- Folding@Home and Rosetta@Home


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to robbin
Basically, unless it contains asbestos. Unfortunately for me the popcorn ceilings in my home have all been painted over, so they stay, no easy removal.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini


aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to AZinOH
Prime the ceiling (at least the areas where the paint didn't stick) and then re-paint the whole thing.

You can either use one of those fancier rollers for popcorn ceiling, or if you have a compressor, you can spray paint.
--
Wacky Races 2012!


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Icarus
said by Icarus:

Ceiling texture out of the bag is essentially whitewash and vermiculite. A good installer will mix the bag with paint. An installer cutting corners and cheaping out will mix with water. Guess which one sticks and can be easily re painted?

Well yeah. I've always seen it mixed with paint. At least that is the way it's supposed to be done. This paintless popcorn thing... Never saw.

Also, we are talking over 15 years ago here as a minimum since last painted per the OP. The application of the popcorn could be even older. From what a few old-timers told me, back then the popcorn was asbestos. Not like what we have today, as you mentioned. So.. dunno... something I would wear a mask for if doing any sanding/scraping of the stuff. So something worth mentioning and to be aware of. Play it safe, don't leave anything to chance.

I think the OP has enough info here to play of a 4x4+ spot and see what comes of it.

AsherN
Premium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON
reply to AZinOH
Drywall over it and be done with it.

ds7

join:2012-11-07
Montpelier, VT
reply to AZinOH
If there's a possibility of asbestos, get it checked by an expert, and avoid the area without a mask until you do.

Asbestos is inert as long as it doesn't get particles in the air - but if it does and you breathe them, well, asbestosis is a nasty condition, and fatal if it's bad enough.

If you do find it, there are services to remove it - they basically take out the asbestos-containing material while sucking away all the dust.


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
said by ds7:

If there's a possibility of asbestos, get it checked by an expert, and avoid the area without a mask until you do.

Asbestos is inert as long as it doesn't get particles in the air - but if it does and you breathe them, well, asbestosis is a nasty condition, and fatal if it's bad enough.

If you do find it, there are services to remove it - they basically take out the asbestos-containing material while sucking away all the dust.

Be very careful using this approach! Once you have it tested, if you find any asbestos, you will have to put it in the disclosures when you sell the house. That will significantly impact the interested parties.

You are much better off painting over it or removing it, taking precautions than having it tested in most cases.


CFoo

join:2008-03-19
Nepean, ON
reply to hm
Nah, if the house was new 16 years ago, I doubt the popcorn contains asbestos since it was banned in the late 70s.

Beezel

join:2008-12-15
Las Vegas, NV
said by CFoo:

Nah, if the house was new 16 years ago, I doubt the popcorn contains asbestos since it was banned in the late 70s.

But some contractors that had stockpiles of it still used it so they wouldn't loose money. I have seen houses built in the 80's here with asbestos popcorn ceilings.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by Beezel:

But some contractors that had stockpiles of it still used it so they wouldn't loose money. I have seen houses built in the 80's here with asbestos popcorn ceilings.

1 - You sure they were not just popcorn ceilings?

2 - 16 years ago was 1997. I know I know, me too, I am reaching my 30s and I still feel like 16 years ago was the 80s.


CFoo

join:2008-03-19
Nepean, ON
reply to Beezel
said by Beezel:

But some contractors that had stockpiles of it still used it so they wouldn't loose money. I have seen houses built in the 80's here with asbestos popcorn ceilings.

Its possible. I'm sure there are contractors who do not care about others.