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nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
reply to ITICharlie1

Re: Walk behind mower

I'd take their diagnosis with a grain of salt.


John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
Nonsense. Bad gas is a "catch all" diagnosis alot of the time.

A few years ago, my father bought a gas-powered log splitter, and with it they threw in a brand-new gas can. On the way home, he stopped and filled the can as well as the tank in his truck. Well, the splitter wouldn't start. He called the store and they had him bring it right back over for their service department to look at it. They said it was bad gas, they had to clean the bowl and it was fine. Well, it must have been bad gas at the factory when they test-ran the unit.

I finished cutting the lawn at my old house up in PA the last week of October, drained the gas (and oil) from my Toro 20092 SR4 as required by the movers. In March I had to start cutting the grass down here. So I filled the tank with gas, filled he crankcase with synthetic 10W30, and it fired right up on the second pull. I was less-kind the prior offseason, as I just left it in my shed all winter with whatever gas was in it - no Stabil or nothing. It started and ran fine when I got it out in the spring.

--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


Coma
Thanks Steve
Premium
join:2001-12-30
NirvanaLand
said by John97:

I was less-kind the prior offseason, as I just left it in my shed all winter with whatever gas was in it - no Stabil or nothing. It started and ran fine when I got it out in the spring.


That is what I did this year with my Honda mower, it just started.

--
May is National amyotrophic lateral sclerosis Month


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I'd take their diagnosis with a grain of salt.

Exactly ! That's probably the diagnosis for 75% of the mowers most shops service every spring.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to ITICharlie1
said by ITICharlie1:

Are B&S engines more prone with problems with storage?

My SR with a Briggs was started for the second year now, after being in storage all winter. It started and ran great, and I do the same storage procedure as you. I do, however, run 100% NON-ethanol gasoline in my engine (and all my small engines). I imagine over time even 10% ethanol could cause adverse effects. But I would suspect it is a "catch all" diagnosis from the mechanic, as others here mentioned. My SR came with a 5 year guaranteed to start warranty. What good is it if they can just throw a "bad gas" diagnosis at you? I say BS on the mechanic.


ITICharlie1
Premium
join:2003-01-22
St. Louis MO
I wish someone sold 100% gas in my area. The city and surrounding counties are mandated to have the 10% stuff. And soon it is to go to 15%. Anyway I got the mower back and they charged me $55.00 to remove and clean the carb, and replace the needle valve and seat. He also suggested I leave the gas in during the off season and use Seafoam instead of Stabil. This is 180' different than what the manual says. I may have to stay away from this place and stick with Western. I'm going out there later today to look at some used wide area mowers.
--
Don't let my reality hinder your imagination!


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
While your out here in civilization, try Bill's Service Center on Sonderen. Also Harvester Small Engine on Jung Station Rd.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·Callcentric
·Dish Network
reply to ITICharlie1
Fuel goes bad fast these days. Use good small engine fuel. »www.vp-sef.com/

It's expensive as hell, so I'm not planning to use it in my mowers during the busy mowing months, but will in the fall so I don't have to worry about regular gas being left in the tanks.

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
Don't know I'd be so quick to condemn the fuel. Use a good stabilizer (I like Sta-Bil) and you should be good to go. I use Sta-Bil and Marvels Mystery Oil in the gas I use around for the generator. Marke the date on it and rotate it every 6 months by pouring in the car. Store the equipment with 3/4 a tank of gas and it fires right up.

The 2 cycle stuff gets even worse treatment. I think the gas I just finished up was 3 years old. The leaf blower hardly knew the difference.

The only thing I drain is the snowblower. The low usage during the season (could go weeks without use) means it's a good candidate for it. I douse everything in WD40 and put it away. Hopefuly that will work well. The last carb on the unit lasted from 2003-2012 and I did nothing to it.

I honestly think "bad gas" is a BS excuse from the manufacturers. There is no reason this equipment should be more sensitive than a modern (or older) car.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
Read the FAQ at the VP website, and you'd think pump gas is the worst stuff on the face of the planet, and their gas is a miracle life saver. They sure could scare the ignorant.

But then again, it better be some miracle serum, since they want $64 for 2 gallons of the stuff.

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
said by Lurch77:

Read the FAQ at the VP website, and you'd think pump gas is the worst stuff on the face of the planet, and their gas is a miracle life saver. They sure could scare the ignorant.

You got that right. Pump fuel is OK for my $30,000 car but is the worst thing ever for my $300 lawn mower? Yeah right.


ITICharlie1
Premium
join:2003-01-22
St. Louis MO
Damn that stuff is $30.00 a gallon. I have property near Mark Twain Lake and a station near there is supposed to have ethanol free gas. Late this fall I may take my can with me and use it to store my stuff during the off season. I'll want to do this regardless I get a new mower or not.
--
Don't let my reality hinder your imagination!


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
Here's a link to a website that lists ethanol free stations. This is all user generated, so it could have some misinformation, but it is usually pretty accurate. »Where to find ethanol free gas..
edit: I see you were active in that thread, so you already know about it.


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
reply to ITICharlie1
I think the whole ethanol free gas "thing" is blown way out of proportion.
Probably the same people who insist on running high octane gas in a normal engine, then claim they get better gas mileage and performance.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
reply to Lurch77
The dealer who sold me my new backpack leafblower strongly recommended that not use ethanol-blended gasoline in it. We have three stations in the county that have the ethanol-free gasoline, so I got some for the blower. I'm still on the fence about switching everything else.
--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I think the whole ethanol free gas "thing" is blown way out of proportion.
Probably the same people who insist on running high octane gas in a normal engine, then claim they get better gas mileage and performance.

Not at all the same thing. Open the manual for any late model small engine and you will see manufacturer warnings and/or notes regarding the use of ethanol in their engines. Unlike the high octane = power BS from some people, this is a real issue that cannot be totally ignored. Any gasoline engine needs proper care. Those that run ethanol blends need just a bit more. And all of the manufacturers highly suggest you run no fuel with more than 10% ethanol.


John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
My Redmax blower specifies 89 octane minimum right in the manual. Dealer suggested using premium (91-93 octane). Manual also specifies 10% maximum for the ethanol blend.

--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
reply to ITICharlie1
I'd never buy a car that required premium gasoline, let alone a piece of lawn equipment. Poor engineering on the part of the manufacturer.
And I certainly wouldn't want to have to keep separate gas cans with different grades on hand.
As far as ethanol in concerned, in some places (such as here), it's nearly impossible to get ethanol free gasoline. I'd have to drive 120 miles, round trip, to get it. Not happening for a leaf blower or a string trimmer.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
reply to ITICharlie1
Some pump gas IS crap stuff.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to John97
said by John97:

My Redmax blower specifies 89 octane minimum right in the manual. Dealer suggested using premium (91-93 octane). Manual also specifies 10% maximum for the ethanol blend.

Your dealer knows more than the manufacturer? No blower has enough compression to require premium gas (91-93 octane).

---------------------------------------------------------------

The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.

»auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-effi···on90.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What kind of gas should I use in my lawnmower/garden equipment?

Consult your owner’s manual for a recommendation. Generally, Regular gasoline will be fine. If the engine is 2-cycle (as commonly found for chain saws or edge trimmers), then 2-cycle oil may also be required in the fuel. This will be explained in the owner’s manual.

»www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM/fu···faq.aspx


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Jack,

In some areas the premium fuel is ethanol free, thus the recommendation may not be due to the octane rating.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

As far as ethanol in concerned, in some places (such as here), it's nearly impossible to get ethanol free gasoline. I'd have to drive 120 miles, round trip, to get it. Not happening for a leaf blower or a string trimmer.

U.S. Energy Information Administration

Frequently Asked Questions
How much ethanol is in gasoline and how does it affect fuel economy?

In 2012, about 134 billion gallons of gasoline (3.19 billion barrels) were consumed in the United States, which contained about 13 billion gallons of ethanol, accounting for 10% of the volume of gasoline consumed.

Most of the gasoline now sold has some ethanol in it, but the exact amount varies by region. In general, ethanol will not exceed 10% by volume. Gasoline with 10% ethanol content by volume is known as E10, and with 15% ethanol is known as E15. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle mileage may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10.

All gasoline vehicles can use E10, but currently you need a light-duty vehicle with a model year of 2001 or greater to use E15, and a "flex-fuel" vehicle to use gasoline with an ethanol content greater than E15. Most of the gasoline with more than 10% ethanol is sold in the Midwest.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Cho Baka
said by Cho Baka:

Jack,

In some areas the premium fuel is ethanol free, thus the recommendation may not be due to the octane rating.

Not anywhere around here. It's all 10% regardless of grade as noted by the stickers on the pumps.

Stations selling ethanol free gas have separate pumps and storage tanks.


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to ITICharlie1
There is also a quick test that can be done to confirm the amount of alcohol in the fuel that you purchase:

»www.thumpertalk.com/topic/937257···asoline/

All you need is a graduated cylinder, water and a bottle to shake things in.
--
The talented hawk speaks French.


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
reply to Cho Baka
I'll have to disagree with you there. I spent some time in the "gasoline logistics" business (pipelines). Have you ever heard the old expression that "gas is gas"? For the most part, it's true. While some retailers may add additives (detergents) of questionable value at the terminal, the gas going through the pipes is all the same. The difference in additive "packages" is negligible, at best. That's right, 7-11 is just as good as BP or Mobil.

Down South, each supplier will put X gallons (realistically, credit for X gallons) into the pipeline. Then, at terminals along the pipeline take out what they need.
Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Cho Baka
said by Cho Baka:

There is also a quick test that can be done to confirm the amount of alcohol in the fuel that you purchase:

»www.thumpertalk.com/topic/937257···asoline/

All you need is a graduated cylinder, water and a bottle to shake things in.

From the description in your post outlines some of the major problems with ethanol in gasoline.

I have 10% ethanol.

This is the max allowed by law, but I have tested pump gas with up to 13% ethanol. Concentrations of ethanol near the max of 10% usually require rejetting if you were originally jetted for gasoline with no ethanol.

Gasoline with ethanol deteriorates more rapidly than ethanol free gas and has a higher vapor pressure and a lower boiling point. The higher vapor pressure can cause problems with vapor lock, fuel percolation, and ethanol bearing fuels will absorb water from the atmosphere.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I'll have to disagree with you there. I spent some time in the "gasoline logistics" business (pipelines). Have you ever heard the old expression that "gas is gas"? For the most part, it's true. While some retailers may add additives (detergents) of questionable value at the terminal, the gas going through the pipes is all the same. The difference in additive "packages" is negligible, at best. That's right, 7-11 is just as good as BP or Mobil.

Down South, each supplier will put X gallons (realistically, credit for X gallons) into the pipeline. Then, at terminals along the pipeline take out what they need.
Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.

+1

This has been true even back when I was a teen. I dated a girl whose father drove a fuel truck for a private company. Every morning he would fill up at the Texaco terminal along with many others. Around here the supplier services all brands. It's all the same gas. I haven't seen a branded truck in a very long time.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:


Your dealer knows more than the manufacturer? No blower has enough compression to require premium gas (91-93 octane).

Around here almost everyone runs premium grade in their small engines. Not because they need it, but because it's the only grade that can be had ethanol free. Which if you ask me is a scam in itself. Make you buy the expensive stuff just to get no ethanol.

said by nunya:

Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.



This is true. There is even one local tanker company that goes around filling the tanks at stations, which has a half dozen gas station logos on the side of their trucks. Now the stations will probably tell you they have a dedicated tanker with that company that only fills BP, or Holiday, or Shell. But I find it hard to believe. I'd bet that same truck pulls out of brand X gas station and right into Brand Y station down the street.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
said by Lurch77:

Around here almost everyone runs premium grade in their small engines. Not because they need it, but because it's the only grade that can be had ethanol free. Which if you ask me is a scam in itself. Make you buy the expensive stuff just to get no ethanol.



Ethanol in Premium Gas?

There is a difference between states on whether premium gas specifically has ethanol in it or not. Or, more correctly, whether it's required to have it in it. Two states in the Union, Missouri and Montana, have specific exemption to allow ethanol-free premium gasoline. So if you live in one of those two states, you can be thankful.

For the rest of us, we are faced with the unpleasant reality that the refineries are all but tied into putting ethanol in premium gas. This is because they have to use the ethanol to raise the octane level of their gasoline blend in order to satisfy the higher octane requirements of premium. This is one reason why you don't get better gas mileage with premium gas, because an essential part of that blend is a component that has less energy and forces the gas mileage down simply by nature.

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Does premium gas have ethanol in it?

Since lead and MTBE were outlawed the way to raise octane is to add Ethanol. How do the gas companies provide the octane rating that premium requires?


ITICharlie1
Premium
join:2003-01-22
St. Louis MO
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Lurch77:

Around here almost everyone runs premium grade in their small engines. Not because they need it, but because it's the only grade that can be had ethanol free. Which if you ask me is a scam in itself. Make you buy the expensive stuff just to get no ethanol.



Ethanol in Premium Gas?

There is a difference between states on whether premium gas specifically has ethanol in it or not. Or, more correctly, whether it's required to have it in it. Two states in the Union, Missouri and Montana, have specific exemption to allow ethanol-free premium gasoline. So if you live in one of those two states, you can be thankful.

For the rest of us, we are faced with the unpleasant reality that the refineries are all but tied into putting ethanol in premium gas. This is because they have to use the ethanol to raise the octane level of their gasoline blend in order to satisfy the higher octane requirements of premium. This is one reason why you don't get better gas mileage with premium gas, because an essential part of that blend is a component that has less energy and forces the gas mileage down simply by nature.

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Does premium gas have ethanol in it?

Since lead and MTBE were outlawed the way to raise octane is to add Ethanol.

The problem where I live is the state may allow ethanol free premium gas, but the city and surrounding counties do not. It is part of pollution control here in St. Louis that started about the same time as emission testing. I would have to drive two hours to find a station that sells 100% gas. Anyway discussion should be in a separate thread.

I have a few other places to go and look at some mowers, and will be doing so next Saturday. My brother and I are going to make it a day trip as you will. He is the one who may be selling the Toro ZTR. His back is worse than mine and the jarring sitting in the seat can be too much for him, so he too is in the market.
--
Don't let my reality hinder your imagination!