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Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA

Re: Walk behind mower

Jack,

In some areas the premium fuel is ethanol free, thus the recommendation may not be due to the octane rating.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

As far as ethanol in concerned, in some places (such as here), it's nearly impossible to get ethanol free gasoline. I'd have to drive 120 miles, round trip, to get it. Not happening for a leaf blower or a string trimmer.

U.S. Energy Information Administration

Frequently Asked Questions
How much ethanol is in gasoline and how does it affect fuel economy?

In 2012, about 134 billion gallons of gasoline (3.19 billion barrels) were consumed in the United States, which contained about 13 billion gallons of ethanol, accounting for 10% of the volume of gasoline consumed.

Most of the gasoline now sold has some ethanol in it, but the exact amount varies by region. In general, ethanol will not exceed 10% by volume. Gasoline with 10% ethanol content by volume is known as E10, and with 15% ethanol is known as E15. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline, although this varies depending on the amount of denaturant that is added to the ethanol. Thus, vehicle mileage may decrease by up to 3.3% when using E10.

All gasoline vehicles can use E10, but currently you need a light-duty vehicle with a model year of 2001 or greater to use E15, and a "flex-fuel" vehicle to use gasoline with an ethanol content greater than E15. Most of the gasoline with more than 10% ethanol is sold in the Midwest.


Jack_in_VA
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North, VA
kudos:1
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·Millenicom
reply to Cho Baka

said by Cho Baka:

Jack,

In some areas the premium fuel is ethanol free, thus the recommendation may not be due to the octane rating.

Not anywhere around here. It's all 10% regardless of grade as noted by the stickers on the pumps.

Stations selling ethanol free gas have separate pumps and storage tanks.


Cho Baka
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there
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reply to ITICharlie1

There is also a quick test that can be done to confirm the amount of alcohol in the fuel that you purchase:

»www.thumpertalk.com/topic/937257···asoline/

All you need is a graduated cylinder, water and a bottle to shake things in.
--
The talented hawk speaks French.



nunya
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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reply to Cho Baka

I'll have to disagree with you there. I spent some time in the "gasoline logistics" business (pipelines). Have you ever heard the old expression that "gas is gas"? For the most part, it's true. While some retailers may add additives (detergents) of questionable value at the terminal, the gas going through the pipes is all the same. The difference in additive "packages" is negligible, at best. That's right, 7-11 is just as good as BP or Mobil.

Down South, each supplier will put X gallons (realistically, credit for X gallons) into the pipeline. Then, at terminals along the pipeline take out what they need.
Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Cho Baka

said by Cho Baka:

There is also a quick test that can be done to confirm the amount of alcohol in the fuel that you purchase:

»www.thumpertalk.com/topic/937257···asoline/

All you need is a graduated cylinder, water and a bottle to shake things in.

From the description in your post outlines some of the major problems with ethanol in gasoline.

I have 10% ethanol.

This is the max allowed by law, but I have tested pump gas with up to 13% ethanol. Concentrations of ethanol near the max of 10% usually require rejetting if you were originally jetted for gasoline with no ethanol.

Gasoline with ethanol deteriorates more rapidly than ethanol free gas and has a higher vapor pressure and a lower boiling point. The higher vapor pressure can cause problems with vapor lock, fuel percolation, and ethanol bearing fuels will absorb water from the atmosphere.



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I'll have to disagree with you there. I spent some time in the "gasoline logistics" business (pipelines). Have you ever heard the old expression that "gas is gas"? For the most part, it's true. While some retailers may add additives (detergents) of questionable value at the terminal, the gas going through the pipes is all the same. The difference in additive "packages" is negligible, at best. That's right, 7-11 is just as good as BP or Mobil.

Down South, each supplier will put X gallons (realistically, credit for X gallons) into the pipeline. Then, at terminals along the pipeline take out what they need.
Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.

+1

This has been true even back when I was a teen. I dated a girl whose father drove a fuel truck for a private company. Every morning he would fill up at the Texaco terminal along with many others. Around here the supplier services all brands. It's all the same gas. I haven't seen a branded truck in a very long time.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:


Your dealer knows more than the manufacturer? No blower has enough compression to require premium gas (91-93 octane).

Around here almost everyone runs premium grade in their small engines. Not because they need it, but because it's the only grade that can be had ethanol free. Which if you ask me is a scam in itself. Make you buy the expensive stuff just to get no ethanol.

said by nunya:

Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.



This is true. There is even one local tanker company that goes around filling the tanks at stations, which has a half dozen gas station logos on the side of their trucks. Now the stations will probably tell you they have a dedicated tanker with that company that only fills BP, or Holiday, or Shell. But I find it hard to believe. I'd bet that same truck pulls out of brand X gas station and right into Brand Y station down the street.


Jack_in_VA
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·Millenicom

1 edit

said by Lurch77:

Around here almost everyone runs premium grade in their small engines. Not because they need it, but because it's the only grade that can be had ethanol free. Which if you ask me is a scam in itself. Make you buy the expensive stuff just to get no ethanol.



Ethanol in Premium Gas?

There is a difference between states on whether premium gas specifically has ethanol in it or not. Or, more correctly, whether it's required to have it in it. Two states in the Union, Missouri and Montana, have specific exemption to allow ethanol-free premium gasoline. So if you live in one of those two states, you can be thankful.

For the rest of us, we are faced with the unpleasant reality that the refineries are all but tied into putting ethanol in premium gas. This is because they have to use the ethanol to raise the octane level of their gasoline blend in order to satisfy the higher octane requirements of premium. This is one reason why you don't get better gas mileage with premium gas, because an essential part of that blend is a component that has less energy and forces the gas mileage down simply by nature.

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Does premium gas have ethanol in it?

Since lead and MTBE were outlawed the way to raise octane is to add Ethanol. How do the gas companies provide the octane rating that premium requires?


ITICharlie1
Premium
join:2003-01-22
Saint Louis, MO

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Lurch77:

Around here almost everyone runs premium grade in their small engines. Not because they need it, but because it's the only grade that can be had ethanol free. Which if you ask me is a scam in itself. Make you buy the expensive stuff just to get no ethanol.



Ethanol in Premium Gas?

There is a difference between states on whether premium gas specifically has ethanol in it or not. Or, more correctly, whether it's required to have it in it. Two states in the Union, Missouri and Montana, have specific exemption to allow ethanol-free premium gasoline. So if you live in one of those two states, you can be thankful.

For the rest of us, we are faced with the unpleasant reality that the refineries are all but tied into putting ethanol in premium gas. This is because they have to use the ethanol to raise the octane level of their gasoline blend in order to satisfy the higher octane requirements of premium. This is one reason why you don't get better gas mileage with premium gas, because an essential part of that blend is a component that has less energy and forces the gas mileage down simply by nature.

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Does premium gas have ethanol in it?

Since lead and MTBE were outlawed the way to raise octane is to add Ethanol.

The problem where I live is the state may allow ethanol free premium gas, but the city and surrounding counties do not. It is part of pollution control here in St. Louis that started about the same time as emission testing. I would have to drive two hours to find a station that sells 100% gas. Anyway discussion should be in a separate thread.

I have a few other places to go and look at some mowers, and will be doing so next Saturday. My brother and I are going to make it a day trip as you will. He is the one who may be selling the Toro ZTR. His back is worse than mine and the jarring sitting in the seat can be too much for him, so he too is in the market.
--
Don't let my reality hinder your imagination!


John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
Reviews:
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·ooma
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by John97:

My Redmax blower specifies 89 octane minimum right in the manual. Dealer suggested using premium (91-93 octane). Manual also specifies 10% maximum for the ethanol blend.

Your dealer knows more than the manufacturer? No blower has enough compression to require premium gas (91-93 octane).

---------------------------------------------------------------

The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.

»auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-effi···on90.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What kind of gas should I use in my lawnmower/garden equipment?

Consult your owner’s manual for a recommendation. Generally, Regular gasoline will be fine. If the engine is 2-cycle (as commonly found for chain saws or edge trimmers), then 2-cycle oil may also be required in the fuel. This will be explained in the owner’s manual.

»www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM/fu···faq.aspx

Wow...

The dealer didn't tell me to do something contrary to the manual. 89 MINIMUM is required. Considering the station near his shop that sells the ethanol-free gas has non-blending dispensers on the island and only two tanks in the ground - they only have 87 octane and 92 octane, that's probably why he told me to use the premium because it's what was available without ethanol.

Thanks for the octane lesson, though.
--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


John97
Over The Hills And Far Away
Premium
join:2000-11-14
Spring Hill, FL
Reviews:
·Bright House
·ooma
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I'll have to disagree with you there. I spent some time in the "gasoline logistics" business (pipelines). Have you ever heard the old expression that "gas is gas"? For the most part, it's true. While some retailers may add additives (detergents) of questionable value at the terminal, the gas going through the pipes is all the same. The difference in additive "packages" is negligible, at best. That's right, 7-11 is just as good as BP or Mobil.

Down South, each supplier will put X gallons (realistically, credit for X gallons) into the pipeline. Then, at terminals along the pipeline take out what they need.
Go park outside a terminal some time (if you can get close enough). Watch the name brand of the trucks pulling in to load up. Quiktrip, Flying J, BP, Mobil, Conoco. Now, do you really think that each one of these companies has a separate pipeline going to that terminal? Of course not. That would be stupid. Gas is gas.

You got it 100% correct. They add the particular retailer's additive pack at the rack, but the gasoline itself is all the same.
--
So put me on a highway, and show me a sign.
And take it to the limit one more time...


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
reply to ITICharlie1

With many gas stations, the name on the signs is just there for name recognition. A "BP" station bought the rights to that name and name only and are free to purchase/sell gas from ANY company they want. This was made more well-known following the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico a few years back and people boycotting BP gas stations.



Cho Baka
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there
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reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Here you go:
»www.shell.ca/en/products-service···wer.html



Sorry about your luck!
--
The talented hawk speaks French.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

2 edits

said by Cho Baka:

said by Jack_in_VA:

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Here you go:
»www.shell.ca/en/products-service···wer.html
[att=1]

Sorry about your luck!

Shell V-Power in Canada does not contain Ethanol? Not so in most of the US. Nothing to be sorry about. I can get all the Ethanol free gas I want 2.5 miles away at my quick stop.

BTW my quick stop is a Shell station selling all 3 grades of 10%. Ethanol blend in addition to the Ethanol Free Gas.


Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

So don't get fooled into thinking you can escape ethanol's grasp simply by paying more and getting premium gas

Around here there are a lot of gas stations that sell ethanol free gasoline, but it is always the premium grade. By WI law they must label the pump as to which have ethanol and which do not. Two (BP and Shell) of the four gas stations here in my hometown have ethanol free premium grade. The other two (Citgo and Mobil) add up to 10% even to the premium.

So yes, I can escape ethanol by buying premium, so long as I pay attention to the pump labels.

quote:
Ethanol Dispenser Labeling
CODE SECTION: Comm 48.10 Labeling of dispensers and containers This interpretation
supercedes all previous interpretations on this subject.
Comm 48.10 (1) DISPENSING EQUIPMENT. (a) General. All devices dispensing petroleum
products at filling stations, garages or other places where petroleum products are sold or offered
for sale shall be marked with a conspicuous label visible on both faces of the dispensing device
indicating the automotive fuel rating of the petroleum product. No label may be placed so that the
text is side-ways or upside down.
(b) Oxygenated gasoline dispensing device labels. 1. A device that dispenses a gasoline–ethanol
fuel blend of more than 2% by volume of ethanol shall be labeled with the maximum volume percent of ethanol at all times the product is offered for retail sale.
2. A device that dispenses a reformulated gasoline, as defined in s. 285.37 (1), Stats., that
contains an oxygenate other than ethanol shall be labeled with the identity of the oxygenate at all
times the product is offered for retail sale. If the reformulated gasoline contains multiple
oxygenates, the label shall identify the predominate oxygenate based upon volume percent.
3. The label shall be placed on the face of the dispenser next to the name and grade of the
product being dispensed. No label may be placed so that the text is sideways or upside down.
4. The label shall be contrasting in color to the dispenser and have lettering using not less than
one–half inch high letters with a stroke of not less than one eighth inch in width.
5. The label shall identify the oxygenate as either “Ethanol”, “Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE)”,
“Ethyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (ETBE)”, “Tertiary Amyl Methyl Ether (TAME)”, “Tertiary Butyl Alcohol
(TBA)”, or as an other oxygenate name approved by the department.
6. A label shall state that the product being dispensed “Contains” followed by the approved name
for the oxygenate.
7. A label shall be conspicuous and legible to a customer when viewed from the driver’s seat of a
motor vehicle that is located within 6 feet of the dispensing device.
»dsps.wi.gov/er/pdf/bst/ProgramLe···ling.pdf


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
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Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to ITICharlie1

40 per cut? I was paying a lawn care service 40 to 60 a month [can't remember exactly]. They came out every other week and mowed and trimmed the lawn. Typically 3 guys and they were done in 20 minutes or less.
That lasted for 2 maybe 3 years. Then I became unemployed and we paid 140 bucks to get our riding mower repaired.

So now I take care of the yard.

A bottle of beer in the beverage holder, ear buds in the ears listening to music, and mowing the lawn and whatever else maybe in the grass. Yep, I mow over nearly everything
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.



nunya
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O Fallon, MO
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Reviews:
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I had a property last year with a small suburban yard in St. Peters (same region as OP) and it cost $35 for a cut and trimming each time.
So $40 is not unheard of. The lawn services around here can also be a bunch of shysters. Mine tried to bill me for cuts that never happened. I try to visit a vacant property at least 2-3 times per week, so I know they were full of it.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.



fluffybunny

@teksavvy.com
reply to ITICharlie1

get one of these :
»www.robotshop.com/friendly-robot···r-3.html
no more mowing for you.



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I think the whole ethanol free gas "thing" is blown way out of proportion.

Depends on the application...

In the fire service, we have a ton of small engines (generators, pumps, assorted saws, hydraulics, etc, etc) that get run hard, but infrequently... They also tend to be pretty specialized, and have a lifespan well beyond the average. (I have a couple of trash pumps that are 20 years old, heavy hydraulics that were over 15 before being upgraded last year, etc...)

When ethanol started appearing in our gas up here; we began having trouble with a lot of our gear... Took a while, but eventually it was narrowed down to the ethanol leading to dried out seals and cracking fuel lines; as the materials used weren't ethanol compatible.

We now run premium gas in our small engines - not for the extra octane, but because it's the only grade our fuel supplier can guarantee is 'pure' gas...

As equipment is modernized, I expect it'll become less of an issue.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by LazMan:

We now run premium gas in our small engines - not for the extra octane, but because it's the only grade our fuel supplier can guarantee is 'pure' gas...

As equipment is modernized, I expect it'll become less of an issue.

The energy content of ethanol is about 33% less than "pure" gasoline,

Using ethanol gas still doesn't make economic sense which is an entirely different issue with ethanol gas.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada

Totally different argument - I don't disagree with you; but from an environmental point of view, e10/e15/e85 is happening.

Personally, I believe the fields of corn and sugar beets being grown for ethanol production could be better served growing food; but I also believe our energy policy is messed up, too - how it makes sense for us (Canada) to export oil to the US and China; then turn around and import oil from Venezuela - well, if I live to 100, I won't ever get the logic behind that one...



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by LazMan:

Totally different argument - I don't disagree with you; but from an environmental point of view, e10/e15/e85 is happening.

It has nothing to do with the environment but everything to do with politicians buying the votes of the corn and beet farmers. Burning more ethanol fuel cannot be environmentally good.