Church members in

Church members in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r2824841 en Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:24:40 EDT Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:24:40 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877683 BrianDamage : I just think that religion has had more significance than say, communism.
Yes, Stalin killed about ten million of his own people, but Hitler killed many more, and religion has killed even more than that. That's my point.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877683 Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:04:48 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877476 SRFireside : I still think it runs deeper than just religion. As you stated the Cold War was NOT religious but the topic of communism sure did run in the same fervor for many people. As with the other examples I stated I think violence via religion is just one facet (albeit a large one) of violence via intolerance to different ideals. I suppose we agree to disagree regarding the semantics.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877476 Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:32:15 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877172 BrianDamage : Well, this thread is about the significance of religion more than anything else.
As far as the Cold War between us and the former USSR, I see your point, but would like to point out that deaths were not many and that it's basis was not religion, but economic and political, as well as that of perpetuation of a democratic system vital to the US's self preservation and vanity in being the only remaining superpower on the planet, both militarily and economically.
Now we have other countries that are as capable (almost) as the former USSR was, both militarily and economically.
China has nuclear weapons. They will be putting a man on the moon soon. The United States will no longer be the only country to enjoy that achievement. What, if anything, will the US do? That remains to be seen. History of our arrogance dictates that we will not be outdone, therefore, I'm sure something would come about.
What you mentioned about the Rodney King trial is good topic, because I see that that type of racial intolerance and prejudice goes back a long way. And, think back, to when blacks were just "negroes", subservient to the white man, and how white men used religion to justify owning slaves, etc.
Think of how leaders like Louis Farrakhan use(d) religion to promote violence and murder.
If you think about all of these issues, all of them have a religious connection in terms of philosophical similarities and motivation.
Religion is still the predominant motivation in this world that has contributed to the most deaths of humans, in all it's subtlety and convolution. Tha..tha...that's what I think....
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877172 Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:43:14 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2866113 Jamming777$ :

said by Linuvas:

Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.

Stalin was an avowed athiest, the official view of the Communist Party of the former Soviet Union, Hitler killed out of a psuedo-scientific theory and personal beliefs not as a religious leader. The Inquisition which one the Roman or the Spanish? Or one of the other smaller ones? Most of the inquisitions were condemned at the time by the Roman Catholic religious leaders of their own time even. The IRA which wing or party of the IRA, some fight for ethnic reasons against the Orangemen, some are Communistic, and some are Religiously based.

Crusades were not so much about massacres, there were a few but that was how wars were fought then when cities that resisted in a siege were taken. It was considered that if you didn't resist you would be spared the sacking and pillaging, wars between Christians were even fought that way. Many people here are ignorant of the political and social realities of the period's that they are citing in their opinions.

But tell me this, do you like the "Song Amazing Grace", it was written by a former Slave Ship Captain, a Scotsman. He was writing about how that things we consider normal for our times may be transcended, by God's Love and his gift of "Grace". It is placing your trust in something other than your own abilities, because some where along the line you are going to fail. God makes things work out in the evils of all times, God is not religion. His will can be thwarted because He gave us the freedom to choose wrongly, even those that speak in his name. But "Grace" allows all of us to move beyond the facts and opinions, we or others hold, by trusting for the future.

Weak-willed? HA! try trusting some one other than yourself for your future and happiness, I bet you wouldn't last an hour.
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Jamming *Team Z Member*]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2866113 Wed, 27 Mar 2002 01:41:31 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2861002 xrobertcmx :

said by DannyBoy:
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11]

Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.
I can't spell and know it so please save that comment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2861002 Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:27:13 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2860981 jp245 : Well stated SR., People feel very strongly about their own beliefs, (right or wrong), and questioning them will bring out alot of opionions from everyone. Look how many respones are envoked from this dicussion.. Luckly we can do this in a civilized manner, but in other times and other countries this was cause for war or other barberic acts. But I myself believe in Jesus Christ, and to bash me for that and call me uneducated and weak minded is only narrow minded from the accuser. Do I know for sure there is a Heaven or a God, or can I prove to you there is? Of course I can't, but can someone else prove to me for sure there isn't, of course not. So why bash someone else's beliefs when there is no definate answer? But I do have faith that there is, and I defend my faith in J.C., but I chose to defend it in a cizilized manner, other's chose to defend there faith through war and aggression.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2860981 Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:24:45 EDT religion is responsible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2858655 anon : How many mass murders would have been prevented if the people committing them didn't know that they could get away with it by using religion. Whether it's a reason or excuse a lot of killings would not have happened if upon returning home to their families people would have been treated as the killers they are instead of holy warriors. It's not just the people committing the acts that are responsible but those that condone it as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2858655 Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:21:25 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2858348 SRFireside : I think it's a much larger sphere of influence than just religion. If you think about it the majority of violent acts stem from a conflict concerning ones core, or personal, beliefs. Religion is just one facet of this. There has been enough talk about holy wars and death in the name of God, Allah, or any other diety on this post. What about other beliefs? The U.S. and the old U.S.S.R. were running a cold war based on differences in economic policy (among other things). As a general rule republicans hate democrats and vice versa, which stems from varying political views. The riots that followed the Rodney King trial was based loosely on racial intolerance (based on the belief that the "man" is sticking to the minorities again). What about the fights you see in sporting events? They stem from something as simple as who your favorite team is. If you really break it down all of these come from challenging someone's personal beliefs and that person reacting to the extreme in response.

In other words I think putting the load on religion alone is avoiding the larger issue. You are correct in pointing out the atrocities BrainDamage. I just think saying the majority of killings are based on religion is pigeon holing the big picture. It's likely some of the stuff I said will spurn new debates, but then again what's what we're here for. :-)
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2858348 Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:40:52 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2857678 BrianDamage : I have my own beliefs.
I believe that there is something more.
I also believe that even though most people on this Earth acknowledge some kind of supreme being in one form or another, and often use it for justification to kill other people, that murder is manifested by *MAN*, and as in anything else, performed by the hands of men.
God has not recently reached out and killed anyone. Man has.
God has been the motivation behind many killings, all perpetrated by the hand of man.
I still believe that religion has claimed more human life than any other single motivation.
It may be convoluted with other reasoning, coupled with other motivations or justifications, etc., but religion in its' varying degrees are the basis for most of the inhumanity that has occurred throughout our history.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2857678 Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:35:15 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2855745 Eatmeingreek :

said by ewwww:
I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists...Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more.

Stalin alone killed 10 million of his own people. You lose.
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What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language? - Private Frost, from the movie Aliens]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2855745 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:05:18 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2854041 jp245 : I've always found it ironic, people that don't subscribe to religious beliefs are of the opinion that religion is the cause for more murder and wars then anything. Yet if you are of the opinion that there is no high power, then you should be able to see that these atrocities are done under mans ideology. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2854041 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:17:41 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2850802 BrianDamage : To me, it seems that religion is as much an "internal" motivator as anything else.
Sure, people have killed over land, etc., I could point out in the Middle East, for example, the Israelis and Palestinians are killing themselves and each other over what? Land rights, among other things, but what else primarily? Freedom to have their own "domain" where their religious values are not compromised by the other party.
Palestinians don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and at one point, the "destruction of Israel" actually existed in the PLO charter.
It may exist still, but I know there was quite a movement by the US specifically, for the PLO (and Yasir Arafat) to have that provision removed, so that a real peace might eventually be brokered.
Sinn Fein, I believe, had similar mandates toward the British Commonwealth on the whole.
It was after the offering of a seat in the House Of Commons that Sinn Fein changed their position toward the British government.
There are other examples too numerous to mention.
I still believe, however, that even though you could convolute issues with land matters, power struggles, politics, etc., the basis of many of these struggles is religious intolerance.
It may manifest itself into who controls what borders, etc., but religion, in my opinion, is the greatest motivator, and that these parties use religion as the justification for what it is they do, wrong or right, true or false, real or fake.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2850802 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:45:52 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2850693 SAM Hunter$ : Motivation or excuse? You can't have it both ways. People kill people for internal emotional reasons--period. They then may attempt to use as an excuse things such as religion, land, honor, etc. Trying to say religion kills people in that context is a dead horse. The excuse and the reason are two different unrelated things.

Do you think there is a lot of theological debate in Northern Ireland over what the Pope said versus Martin Luther? Do you think in the Bosnia area between the Croats, Serbs and the such there are Catholic, Christian Orthodox, and Islamic slogans shouted over the sound of the AK-47? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2850693 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:32:45 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2850173 BrianDamage : Point taken.
Even so, religion is a baseline justification for these things we've talked about-whether is was an excuse to kill or whether it was in defense of religious "right" as one sect would perceive it.
Either way, religion is a motivation, and not to say that it might not be used in conjunction with other ideas to perpetuate an agenda.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2850173 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:11:15 EDT Re: Religion for what it's *really* worth http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849528 mags2 : An upside down broken cross is just one interpretation of the symbol. The origins of the logo date back to 1958 during the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) in Britain. It is based in part on naval semaphore signalling the letters ND.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849528 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:10:32 EDT Re: Religion for what it's *really* worth http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849488 SRFireside :

said by mags2:
Again, very well said, BrianDamage. Your statements represent just one of the reasons why the symbol for peace is an upside down broken cross.

[text was edited by author 2002-03-25 09:32:48]

Interesting that you picked that up. Not many people figure that out. I think there is more to the peace symbol and why it's what it is than what's posted here.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849488 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:03:37 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849477 SRFireside :

said by BrianDamage:
I stick to the ideaology that religion has killed more people than any other single motivation, which "motivation" being the key word....sure, people kill people, but why? There are reasons hy people kill people, and religion has been the biggest reason throughout the history of humanity.

I have to only partially agree with you on that statement. I feel religion has been the single strongest EXCUSE to kill people rather than the actual motivation.

The Crusades weren't about freeing the holy land. It was about the current church leaders wanting more wealth and land. They told the knights it is the will of God to slay the infidels. Some knights thought, "Isn't killing a sin?" so the excuse given to them was, "They are Muslims and not Christians. So it is okay to kill them." Religion wasn't the motivation. Greed was. You can probably attribute most of the killing in the name of religion to something other than the actual religion. Whether it be border disputes or cultural differences.

Look at the Bin Laden and other terrorist organizations. Most of them say they are doing it for their religion. I think we all know that's not the case. It's hate. Pure and simple. Again, religion is the excuse to carry it out. I believe ideology has taken a back seat to more secular desires when violence is involved.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849477 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:02:13 EDT Re: Religion for what it's *really* worth http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849379 BrianDamage : Thanks, I think.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849379 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:41:18 EDT Religion for what it's *really* worth http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849309 mags2 : Again, very well said, BrianDamage. Your statements represent just one of the reasons why the symbol for peace is an upside down broken cross.

[text was edited by author 2002-03-25 09:32:48]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849309 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:27:36 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849147 BrianDamage : My logic is not flawed.
I never said the majority was "right", nor am I defending any religion. But, religion has brought out some good in people while bringing out the worst in others.
Also, I stick to the ideaology that religion has killed more people than any other single motivation, which "motivation" being the key word....sure, people kill people, but why? There are reasons hy people kill people, and religion has been the biggest reason throughout the history of humanity.
Governments are based on religious beliefs. Boundaries and borders are often defined by religious significance. Even today, governments are at war with each other because of religious differences. Israel and the PLO....Britain and Northern Ireland.....etc.
Christians and Muslims are killing each other in the Phillipines and Malaysia, Protestants killing Catholics in the British Isles, Christians and Muslims are killing each other in Asia, in America, in the Middle East....the list goes on and on.
I could make more examples, and the reference to "paganism" as posted further back in the thread serves to demonstrate the intolerance between religions that lead to underscore the motivation that leads to the deaths of people because of religious differences.
A "pagan" in Christian terms most often describes one who doesn't believe in Christ or the Holy Trinity, or was applied to the Native American peoples who were already here when the "Christians" landed....just because the "gods" of the indigenous peoples were different from theirs, they were branded "pagans", and were either converted to Christianity (the "correct" religion), or were killed....the Crusades were about perpetuating Christianity
against Islam....many died for the "religious" cause...
Infidels versus pagans....Christians versus Muslims, Muslims versus Christians, Christian versus Christian, Muslim versus Muslim, Hindu versus Muslim and vice versa, Buddhist versus Christian.....etc., etc., etc....
Where does it end? I don't see it ending anytime soon, but I have read the holiest of books from many religions as well as studied their varying histories, and I see NO distinct, solid, subsidy of violence to perpetuate the existence of one religion over another.
I have read the Bible, the Torah, the Quaran....not as thoroughly as I wanted but I have read them, as well as studied the varying histories of the governments founded on their principles, as well as the history of the religions themselves, both in college, and on my own out of sheer curiosity.
There are going to be those who want to inflame the topic based on their personal beliefs, but then that is what freedom is all about, isn't it?
I believe that if religion is going to continue to exist, then the peoples of the varying religion(s) need to realize that as a people, we must respect each other, and find a common ground. Believe it or not, for example, Christianity and Islam have a lot more in COMMON than they have different.
I, for one, believe that the events described by both religions respective holy books could have happened exactly the way they describe, given timelines and similarities of text.
Not that I specifically endorse either religion, or belong to any religion, because I don't, but, I will not readily dismiss religion on the whole, because there could be some significance to it (them).
They have defined the intolerance of the human race to this day more than any other factor.
Religion is the motivation for bloodshed, racism, intolerance, and hatred, as well as love, the world over.
We are missing, however, a link to tie them together, and that continues to drive the motivation that tears them apart even further.
That's what I think.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849147 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:45:49 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2847698 anon : Actually it was founded by Sky Dayton who coincidently is a member of the church of Scientology. A very huge and distinct difference from what you claim. The religious organization itself had nothing to do with it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2847698 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:54:56 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2847348 anon : Heres whats funny!

Earthlink Internet was founded by the same crackpot religion]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2847348 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:06:11 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2845084 bmn : And I'm guessing that you are following your leaders WITHOUT question and that anyone who dares to question the current leadership should be hanged ?
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The war on drugs... A neverending war on freedom.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2845084 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:23:25 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2844746 jp245 : The Swatsticka is actually a pagon symbol for war. Hilter was never a Christian, in fact one of Hitler's main objectives was to remove all religous beliefs and instate old pagon ideas and beliefs..And before you chastise others religous beliefs ask yourself this, what would the world be like without religon?
[text was edited by author 2002-03-24 18:26:53]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2844746 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:32:57 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2844139 bmn :

said by BrianDamage:
I would have to agree. 95% of the world's population believes in a higher power in some form or fashion.
One cannot dismiss that as weak will. To do so is pretty shallow.

That's for my prior post...
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The war on drugs... A neverending war on freedom.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2844139 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:05:45 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2844132 bmn : The majority rules mentality leaves out one thing... Just because the majority rules, doesn't mean the majority is right... Case in point, the Earth used to be thought of as the center of the universe.... Minority was right on that one.... Your logic is SEVERELY flawed...
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The war on drugs... A neverending war on freedom.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2844132 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:04:43 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2841753 cidhigh42 : Yes, I think "Stranger in a Strange Land" is closer to the truth, sadly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2841753 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:25:27 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2840478 KrK : I also heard a quote attributed to Ghandi (and I also am not sure how true it is) but it went like this...

"If the world met the Christ of Christianity today, they would embrace him, but instead they meet the Christians of Christianity, and are turned away."

While I understand what he is saying, I'm still not so sure about the first part. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2840478 Sun, 24 Mar 2002 02:15:45 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837780 finortis : You know what I find interesting, and some might chose to take it with a grain of salt without a provided reference, which I don't have in front of me (lets just say I've read a lot over the years, and even decades).

Purportedly, Mahatma Gahndi was considering converting to Christianity...but in the end he basically said to the effect of "Christians seem to take an innoculation of truth as testimoney against the real thing...." But he went on to say that even as the defects of Christianity were becomming apparent to him, so the defects of Hinduism were becoming increasingly apparent to him as well.... Supposedly (where did I see this), some weren't happy that he should have dared to say this...and yet one can also wonder who might have been closer to the source, if you will, in all this as well...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837780 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:32:25 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837713 finortis : Then one can throw in the "divine right of kings" and all that could lead too....

But as to Hitler and the Nazis, lets see the Swatsticka, where I have seen that before (not in Nazi Germany), but it's symbolic meaning....the origins of much of the symbology used. If some were right the Io Hitler might have had religious significance, and that there were those in the Nazi party practitioners of "black magic"... I won't state it is or isn't so as such, but if one were to look for the history of some of the symbology and the like, they might find something of interest in seeing what preceded some of what was presented....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837713 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:23:38 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837340 anon : You want to know what it's like to BE a scientologist? How do they rationalize their actions?

I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists.

FDR
Truman
Eisenhower
JFK
LBJ
Nixon
Reagan
GB sr.
Clinton
GB jr.

Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more. As Americans, we love conflict, but we need to justify it with some moral conviction. We have so much faith that we're right that these killings don't even factor into our discussions of political deaths. I'm sure, as they read down the list, most people were already rationalizing what each of those men did. That's what faith does.

This is how people can join organizations like the scientologists. When you get brainwashed, how will you know whether you're really thinking or just rationalizing your faith.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837340 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:35:48 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2835050 mags2 :

said by Hop:
Hey, wasn't that a singing group from the 60's???
(Neal Down and Ben Dover!);)

Good one, Hop.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2835050 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:59:02 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2831318 Hop : Hey, wasn't that a singing group from the 60's???
(Neal Down and Ben Dover!);)
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What if they took our computers away?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2831318 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:07:56 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2830937 nomocontrol : remember, there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over...sorry, I stole that from Frank Zappa, but isn't that what this is all about anyway ??]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2830937 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:17:53 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2830186 nc1165 : The first one is free. ;) (There's more where that came from.)
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2830186 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:51:15 EDT Re: Church Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829835 no1ukn0w : Read my message again.. apparently you have problems reading what other people say. Apparently you only read THE PARTS YOU WANT TO OBJECT TO.. but maybe you will read this, since it was my point (I will put it in bold, maybe that will help you understand my point too).

No religion or belief has ever killed anyone.. the person killed the other.. Religion is a set of words .. words don't kill people.

See it that time? If you are still confused. That is to the response of you saying, religion has killed more people than anything else.

I didn't open myself wide open. As you can see no one else flamed me, you on the other hand are getting flamed up and down.

oh ya, I can reply to what I please, don't tell me what to do, kthx
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 21:13:20]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829835 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:08:55 EDT Re: Church Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829739 KrK : Nice editing!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829739 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:56:46 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829696 KrK : Ok, I am now finding myself more understanding of Mags statements as well. There is a great difference between an organized Religion and Spiritual Truth.

People who are exposed to too much organized religion actually usually are driven *away* because they get to experience firsthand the failings of man... the Saying one thing, Doing another, the false pretenses, the hypocrisy(sp?) and so on. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829696 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:51:44 EDT Re: Church Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829693 mags2 :

try not to shove your foot in your mouth if you can.

Thanks for chiming in, chum. I will if you will.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829693 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:51:29 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829659 KrK :

said by nc1165:
Religion is to spirituality what politics is to government.

Now THAT is something you'll find no argument from me about. It's what I believe, and a great quote. Mind if I steal it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829659 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:47:04 EDT Re: Church Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829636 KrK :

said by mags2:
You know you opened yourself wide open for a flame by implying that anyone who disagrees with you and your bud is illogical so please, no whining. On second thought, nevermind; Don't bother replying.

Hmmm and what exactly did *you* do when you stated (in even less words) that anyone with religious beliefs are "weak willed" and obviously don't have a thinking mind? Pot calling the Kettle black a bit, eh? I mean you don't have to hold any religious beliefs at all to realize that being a hypocrite is an expression of character.... or lack thereof.

Nobody is perfect, but try not to shove your foot in your mouth if you can.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829636 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:44:32 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829585 KrK :

said by DannyBoy:
Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.

I'm afraid I'd have to agree... you're focusing on modern history. You have to remember that throughout the ages, more people are murdered "In the name of God" then any other reason.

Remember that Religion doesn't mean truth. Religion is often just the empty form and ritual that has been used to twist and bury the truth. There are many obviously "religiously devout" human beings who obviously don't know much about God...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829585 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:37:11 EDT Church Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2828838 mags2 :

And I am sure mags2 will try to find some way to argue this point.. but any logical thinking person would see this.

Oh well allow me to retort. So, by inference here, I'm "arguing" a point. Tell me then, what is it exactly that you're doing? Besides riding someone else's coat-tails, that is. You know you opened yourself wide open for a flame by implying that anyone who disagrees with you and your bud is illogical so please, no whining. On second thought, nevermind; Don't bother replying.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2828838 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:54:01 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2828725 no1ukn0w : "It's the people, not the religion, that makes your statement true. "

Once again to the question of "do guns kill people or do people kill people?".. Your statement is so true. No religion or belief has ever killed anyone.. the person killed the other.. Religion is a set of words .. words don't kill people.

And I am sure mags2 will try to find some way to argue this point.. but any logical thinking person would see this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2828725 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:37:26 EDT Re: Not Buyin It http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2827893 Paralytic : Spirituality is the personal relationship between an individual and the creator, Religion is the relationship between an individual and like-minded peers. There is no ritual or doctrine proscribed in Spiritualism, it is merely a recognition of the fact that all creation is of the creator. Religion applies rules and value judgements to this fact; and by doing so, creates a rift between the individual and the creator. There is nothing inherently wrong with Religion, but a Spiritual person may find it confining and superfluous.

Organized religion's primary function is social control. It generates a sense of community and commonality, as well as provides an external morality for those with underdeveloped personal ethics. The inherent danger of this is the tendency to create an "us vs. them" mentality, which has occurred many times at the cost of millions of lives. This is not only sad, but blasphemous; all major religions are based on the same core morality, and genocide is not in the rule book. To oversimplify (and to keep this brief), Spiritualism focuses on commonality between you and your creator; Religion tends to emphasize differences.

I do not consider Scientology to be a religion. By shrouding their beliefs in secrecy and attempting to withhold information from those not properly "indoctrinated" they show themselves to be a cult.

Apologies for being long-winded, I just had flashbacks to comparative religion studies...
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If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll laugh at you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2827893 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:53:10 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2827311 IbWahooka : Science and relegion have never really mixed, so this little article doesn't surprise me.
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That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2827311 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:42:14 EDT Not Buyin It http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2826608 mags2 :

I think where most people misread you, myself included, is the equating of "being religious" with the attendance of or following a particular affiliation, which it isn't. If you believe in God, or any other deity, and have reverence for that god, then you are religious whether you go to "church" or not.

I disagree. Religious belief and spirituality are two very different things.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2826608 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:15:45 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2826355 smithjm :

said by mags2:
Who said anything about spirituality? You can be spritual, and not religious, the two are not mutually exclusive.

The only difference between the two is if you have a "reverence" for the God or deity that you believe in.

said by mags2:
I consider myself a "spiritual" person but just because I do not attend regular church services, that does not make me an atheist, per se. I believe in God, I do not -however- believe in having what I should think, do or say dictated to me by any particular religious affiliation.

I think where most people misread you, myself included, is the equating of "being religious" with the attendance of or following a particular affiliation, which it isn't. If you believe in God, or any other deity, and have reverence for that god, then you are religious whether you go to "church" or not.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2826355 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:39:29 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2826253 nc1165 :

said by Anonymous Dude:
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.

The God given right to take the land at whatever cost, including the intentional spread of small pox among Native Americans, is what I am referring to. And as far as Communists are concerned, I've never known a single communist to strike out in the name and will of God to justify his heinous crimes. Despots and dictators are practically duty-bound to kill. That's why they are called despots and dictators. Religious leaders, OTOH, are bound to honor their religion and killing should be the last thing on their mind. They are held to a higher standard and should not be invoking the name of God to justify their crimes, which makes their being committed doubly horrible when compared with those crimes committed by people who proclaim no religion at all.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2826253 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:25:35 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825807 banditws6 :

said by mags2:
I believe in God, I do not -however- believe in having what I should think, do or say dictated to me by any particular religious affiliation. It is entirely up to me what choices I make and the consequences of those choices are between me and whatever divine entity I choose to believe in----whether it's J.C. or Buddha or Allah. What makes you weak willed or weak minded is when you blindly follow the mob doing and thinking precisely as they do without thinking about the consequences of those actions yourself.

Now you're making sense; I think I misread you before. Those are also my thoughts exactly. I believe in the concept of morality and spirituality, but have never been a fan of organized religion. I had a big dose of that growing up and it seemed odd the way everybody just followed the leader without ever caring why they were told to perform a certain religious act. I prefer to have a reason to believe something (a reason besides "everybody else is doing it").
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825807 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:20:18 EDT Re: Religion responsible for more deaths? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825683 deltat2000 : Please quote your historic references for this statement!
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The Future Is Purchased By The Present!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825683 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:00:13 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825643 anon : Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825643 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:54:11 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825422 SRFireside :

said by mags2:
I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.

It's the people, not the religion, that makes your statement true. Catholicism is made up of a group of people who view God in a certain way and want to worship in that way. There are those in the Catholic faith who have abused and distorted that to gain wealth and power. The rise of the Catholic church during the medieval era comes to mind as well as the Crusades. These abominations don't stop the fact there are Catholic people who are good people who do not judge and persecute, but support their community and non-catholics.

EVERY religion has that problem as it's the people who make the religion. People make choices, including ones of faith. Some people make choices that do not benefit others. Some people distort a belief system to gain superiority from others (lots of the persecution issues I think stem from that). There are some weak willed people who do follow a faith because they were swept up in the wave made from a particular religion. But then again those are the same people who would have been swept up by anything that draws them in and accepts them.

I just can't agree to an over-generalization of this issue as there are way too many parameters that fall into place. Also it's easier to hear about the negative aspects since that's what gets in the news. You find all kinds of people in religion, just like you find all kinds of people everywhere else. You might see it one way due to your own personal experiences. I have seen more than one side to this issue and try to keep an open mind regarding religion.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:23:19]

[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:42:10]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825422 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:22:04 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825372 BrianDamage : Some of what you say is accurate, some not. Do you even know who Pol Pot is, or did you just happen to hear AL Franken mention him when he addressed the NPC?
No matter. We could debate motivations all day of the people you mentioned. But, yes, some of them had some religious motivations.
Hitler- Christian "Aryan" supremacy, son of a Jewish mother, whom he regarded as a whore, which perpetuated his hatred of Jews. Is this not religious motivation?
I would like to point out that the battle between the supremacy of Christianity and all other religions HAVE killed more folks than any other single reason.
I don't disagree that world leaders have not killed in the name of power, but it has not killed as many people as religion has, in my opinion. My opinion is based of the events of human history.
This killing continues today....Northern Ireland, Middle East, Asia, the Pacific Rim, the list goes on and on....
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825372 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:15:51 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825367 DaSneaky1D : You all are right. "Religion" has been the named cause of horrible acts throughout history. Or rather, the people behind the "religion". I wonder what your excuses would be for horrible acts caused by people without "religion".

It's one think to hold an opinion. It's quite another to vocalize it in a fashion as to draw a flame. Regardless of what beliefs people may hold, boldly calling someone "weak-willed/weak minded" is an insult. Personally I don't trip. That just showed your charature as a person. But, there are millions of upstanding people that integrate a spiritual routine in their lives that are well beyond "weak-willed/weak minded" that may be offended.
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-- Someday, I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever.
Man, PHP rocks!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825367 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:15:09 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825365 mags2 :

While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.

Who said anything about spirituality? You can be spritual, and not religious, the two are not mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "spiritual" person but just because I do not attend regular church services, that does not make me an atheist, per se. I believe in God, I do not -however- believe in having what I should think, do or say dictated to me by any particular religious affiliation. It is entirely up to me what choices I make and the consequences of those choices are between me and whatever divine entity I choose to believe in----whether it's J.C. or Buddha or Allah. What makes you weak willed or weak minded is when you blindly follow the mob doing and thinking precisely as they do without thinking about the consequences of those actions yourself. In other words, when you go along just to get along. That is what I meant by weak willed/weak minded. If you cannot think for yourself, then you are weak period. And no religion will save you from your own stupidity.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825365 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:14:56 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825333 nc1165 : That BS! Never heard the term "manifest destiny"? How about reading of the Crusades? I should know better than to respond to a guy that starts sentences with "Let's see...". It's condescending and reflects myopic tendencies toward new or unfamiliar ideas.

The forum mods should consider removing this thread.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825333 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:10:11 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825315 SRFireside :

said by Dachi:
Agreed..People tend to become aggressively offensive when their beliefs and perceptions are threatened, and sometimes even when opposed with common sense and logic.

Religion isn't the only subject this falls under. Try talking to a die hard republican about issues that go against their party and you get the same aggressive and offensive views. Same can be said for hard core democrats. If you really think about it anybody hard core about anything will get you that response when their belief comes under fire. You can't just pigeon-hole religion. Some people when they believe in something, and that something could be anything, will blindly follow it. That doesn't mean everyone who is a rep. or dem. or in a religion blindly follows. I stand by my statement that you can't categorize people who follow a religion as weak-willed sheep. Not that you said that...just coming to full circle on the thread.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825315 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:08:04 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825283 mags2 :

Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics....But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause. One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.

Well said, BrianDamage. I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825283 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:03:49 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825257 DannyBoy : Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825257 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:59:59 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825237 nc1165 :

said by SRFireside:
Believing in something or having a spiritual faith does not equate to weakness. The weakness is in not making your own choices on what you believe. While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.

He was lambasting religion specifically. Likewise, I see it as a crutch for weak individuals to lean on which draws people in during difficult times and often times ends up putting their souls into a wheelchair rather than teaching them to walk on their own. It is also often used as a curtain for a Wizard of Oz to hide behind.

This whole topic really pops my cork. However, one thing I believe is that the relationship between religion and spirituality has been so bastardized over the centuries that it has reached the point that we have nothing but inbred interpretations of what was once a good thing. To this point, I would like to impress on you that spirituality and religion have taken such divergent paths that they no longer have anything to do with one another.

Religion is to spirituality what politics is to government.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825237 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:57:16 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825201 Traal :

said by BrianDamage:
Who was harmed by this, aside from the fact that these websites shed some light on some of the "Church"'s activities and philosophies?

Any entity who seeks to suppress the truth, unless it is for the protection of others ("Anthrax for Fun and Profit"?), is dishonest at best, dangerous at worst.
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/* The green code always compiles. */]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825201 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:53:00 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825195 Daishi : Agreed..

I see religion as 2 groups - those that don't know, and those that don't know they don't know.

Your post is partly flamebait but true to some extent, people sometimes tend to align with the religion that caters most to what they want to believe, others believe because that is what they have been told from a young age, or because they are partly afraid of the consequences of being a "nonbeliever". People tend to become aggressively offensive when their beliefs and perceptions are threatened, and sometimes even when opposed with common sense and logic.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825195 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:52:01 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825153 BrianDamage : I would have to agree. 95% of the world's population believes in a higher power in some form or fashion.
One cannot dismiss that as weak will. To do so is pretty shallow.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825153 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:45:38 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825147 BrianDamage : Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics.
My opinions and beliefs are probably outside what most religions choose to believe or hold dear. I would classify myself as an "educated agnostic".
I believe that objectivity is paramount when discussing religion though, and that one should be willing to accept varying religious beliefs as being at least as valid as any other.
I believe that they all have their good points, but they all have idiosyncracies as well.
They all have as many similarities as differences also.
But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause.
One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825147 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:44:03 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825122 SRFireside : To each his own, but I don't think you have the right perspective regarding personal beliefs. If what you say is true then EVERYBODY is weak-willed/weak minded. A belief system goes way beyond just religion. Look at the political parties. There are people who are overly zealous for their political affiliation...sometimes to the point that goes beyond reason. Look at sports fans. Some of them go through the same ritualistic mannerisms regarding their favorite team or sport. Everyone has a focal belief system. That's a part of human nature. To say those who believe in God are weak minded is actually narrow minded in of itself. It's likely even you believe in some sort of something beyond your own sphere of influence whether it be politics, spirituality, sports, movie stars, or Quake III. Whatever floats your boat.

As a matter of fact there are many strong willed people out there who would strongly argue your point. Believing in something or having a spiritual faith does not equate to weakness. The weakness is in not making your own choices on what you believe. While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825122 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:41:09 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824977 mags2 :

Now was that comment really necessary?

Unfortunately, the truth always hurts. If you cannot accept someone else's opinion, then perhaps you ought to reconsider reading this particular forum. After all, you are in charge of your life and I'm not holding a shotgun to your head forcing you to read it.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson

[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 10:20:25]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824977 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:19:34 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824931 DaSneaky1D : Now was that comment really necessary?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824931 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:14:38 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824910 mags2 : Whatever gets you thru the day, I guess. "Religion" has always been a concept for the weak-willed/weak minded anyway. Even "Scientology." /flame off
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 10:13:14]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824910 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:10:42 EDT Re: Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824904 c0mmander : guess scientologists arent much for technology...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824904 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:09:37 EDT Church members http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824841 BrianDamage : I wonder what Tom Cruise and John Travolta think about all this.
But I am left to wonder....
Who was harmed by this, aside from the fact that these websites shed some light on some of the "Church"'s activities and philosophies?
Can't anyone who follows L.Ron and reads his literature come to the same conclusions about these matters?
I think this goes a bit overboard. After all, people can pretty much say what they want as long as it's not slanderous or a libel offense.
That same freedom allowed Mr. Hubbard (a science-fiction writer) to dream this "religion" up in the first place and spread it all around so that people would buy into it.
I think the people at Google were right to put the links back in place.
If these Scientologists want to sue, then let them sue. I didn't read anything I hadn't read or heard before about them.
If you read "Dianetics" it sheds some light on Mr. Hubbard's views.
I perused it years ago....I haven't read it lately. I think it's humorous though that people took it seriously as a "religion".
But I still like John Travolta as an "actor". :)
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824841 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:00:26 EDT