 mags2Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal
| reply to BrianDamage06
Re: Church members Whatever gets you thru the day, I guess. "Religion" has always been a concept for the weak-willed/weak minded anyway. Even "Scientology." /flame off
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 10:13:14] |
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 DaSneaky1Done wall to block them allPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou | Now was that comment really necessary? |
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mags2Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal
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Now was that comment really necessary?
Unfortunately, the truth always hurts. If you cannot accept someone else's opinion, then perhaps you ought to reconsider reading this particular forum. After all, you are in charge of your life and I'm not holding a shotgun to your head forcing you to read it.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 10:20:25] |
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| reply to mags2
To each his own, but I don't think you have the right perspective regarding personal beliefs. If what you say is true then EVERYBODY is weak-willed/weak minded. A belief system goes way beyond just religion. Look at the political parties. There are people who are overly zealous for their political affiliation...sometimes to the point that goes beyond reason. Look at sports fans. Some of them go through the same ritualistic mannerisms regarding their favorite team or sport. Everyone has a focal belief system. That's a part of human nature. To say those who believe in God are weak minded is actually narrow minded in of itself. It's likely even you believe in some sort of something beyond your own sphere of influence whether it be politics, spirituality, sports, movie stars, or Quake III. Whatever floats your boat.
As a matter of fact there are many strong willed people out there who would strongly argue your point. Believing in something or having a spiritual faith does not equate to weakness. The weakness is in not making your own choices on what you believe. While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!? |
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 BrianDamage06We Are The Hounds From HellPremium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX | reply to DaSneaky1D
Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics.
My opinions and beliefs are probably outside what most religions choose to believe or hold dear. I would classify myself as an "educated agnostic".
I believe that objectivity is paramount when discussing religion though, and that one should be willing to accept varying religious beliefs as being at least as valid as any other.
I believe that they all have their good points, but they all have idiosyncracies as well.
They all have as many similarities as differences also.
But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause.
One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... |
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BrianDamage06We Are The Hounds From HellPremium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX | reply to SRFireside
I would have to agree. 95% of the world's population believes in a higher power in some form or fashion.
One cannot dismiss that as weak will. To do so is pretty shallow.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... |
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| reply to mags2
Agreed..
I see religion as 2 groups - those that don't know, and those that don't know they don't know.
Your post is partly flamebait but true to some extent, people sometimes tend to align with the religion that caters most to what they want to believe, others believe because that is what they have been told from a young age, or because they are partly afraid of the consequences of being a "nonbeliever". People tend to become aggressively offensive when their beliefs and perceptions are threatened, and sometimes even when opposed with common sense and logic. |
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 nc1165
join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL | reply to SRFireside
said by SRFireside:
Believing in something or having a spiritual faith does not equate to weakness. The weakness is in not making your own choices on what you believe. While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.
He was lambasting religion specifically. Likewise, I see it as a crutch for weak individuals to lean on which draws people in during difficult times and often times ends up putting their souls into a wheelchair rather than teaching them to walk on their own. It is also often used as a curtain for a Wizard of Oz to hide behind.
This whole topic really pops my cork. However, one thing I believe is that the relationship between religion and spirituality has been so bastardized over the centuries that it has reached the point that we have nothing but inbred interpretations of what was once a good thing. To this point, I would like to impress on you that spirituality and religion have taken such divergent paths that they no longer have anything to do with one another.
Religion is to spirituality what politics is to government.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood. |
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| reply to BrianDamage06
Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11] |
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mags2Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal | reply to BrianDamage06
Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics....But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause. One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.
Well said, BrianDamage. I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson |
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| reply to Daishi7
said by Dachi:
Agreed..People tend to become aggressively offensive when their beliefs and perceptions are threatened, and sometimes even when opposed with common sense and logic.
Religion isn't the only subject this falls under. Try talking to a die hard republican about issues that go against their party and you get the same aggressive and offensive views. Same can be said for hard core democrats. If you really think about it anybody hard core about anything will get you that response when their belief comes under fire. You can't just pigeon-hole religion. Some people when they believe in something, and that something could be anything, will blindly follow it. That doesn't mean everyone who is a rep. or dem. or in a religion blindly follows. I stand by my statement that you can't categorize people who follow a religion as weak-willed sheep. Not that you said that...just coming to full circle on the thread.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!? |
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nc1165
join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL | reply to DannyBoy5
That BS! Never heard the term "manifest destiny"? How about reading of the Crusades? I should know better than to respond to a guy that starts sentences with "Let's see...". It's condescending and reflects myopic tendencies toward new or unfamiliar ideas.
The forum mods should consider removing this thread.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood. |
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mags2Agent Provocateur
join:2001-07-19
SoCal | reply to SRFireside
While I agree organized religion in of itself is not the answer I think people who figure out their spirituality end up being stronger than those who don't.
Who said anything about spirituality? You can be spritual, and not religious, the two are not mutually exclusive. I consider myself a "spiritual" person but just because I do not attend regular church services, that does not make me an atheist, per se. I believe in God, I do not -however- believe in having what I should think, do or say dictated to me by any particular religious affiliation. It is entirely up to me what choices I make and the consequences of those choices are between me and whatever divine entity I choose to believe in----whether it's J.C. or Buddha or Allah. What makes you weak willed or weak minded is when you blindly follow the mob doing and thinking precisely as they do without thinking about the consequences of those actions yourself. In other words, when you go along just to get along. That is what I meant by weak willed/weak minded. If you cannot think for yourself, then you are weak period. And no religion will save you from your own stupidity.
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Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson |
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DaSneaky1Done wall to block them allPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou Reviews:
 ·Charter
| reply to mags2
You all are right. "Religion" has been the named cause of horrible acts throughout history. Or rather, the people behind the "religion". I wonder what your excuses would be for horrible acts caused by people without "religion".
It's one think to hold an opinion. It's quite another to vocalize it in a fashion as to draw a flame. Regardless of what beliefs people may hold, boldly calling someone "weak-willed/weak minded" is an insult. Personally I don't trip. That just showed your charature as a person. But, there are millions of upstanding people that integrate a spiritual routine in their lives that are well beyond "weak-willed/weak minded" that may be offended.
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-- Someday, I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever.
Man, PHP rocks! |
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BrianDamage06We Are The Hounds From HellPremium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX | reply to DannyBoy5
Some of what you say is accurate, some not. Do you even know who Pol Pot is, or did you just happen to hear AL Franken mention him when he addressed the NPC?
No matter. We could debate motivations all day of the people you mentioned. But, yes, some of them had some religious motivations.
Hitler- Christian "Aryan" supremacy, son of a Jewish mother, whom he regarded as a whore, which perpetuated his hatred of Jews. Is this not religious motivation?
I would like to point out that the battle between the supremacy of Christianity and all other religions HAVE killed more folks than any other single reason.
I don't disagree that world leaders have not killed in the name of power, but it has not killed as many people as religion has, in my opinion. My opinion is based of the events of human history.
This killing continues today....Northern Ireland, Middle East, Asia, the Pacific Rim, the list goes on and on....
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments..... |
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| reply to mags2
said by mags2:
I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.
It's the people, not the religion, that makes your statement true. Catholicism is made up of a group of people who view God in a certain way and want to worship in that way. There are those in the Catholic faith who have abused and distorted that to gain wealth and power. The rise of the Catholic church during the medieval era comes to mind as well as the Crusades. These abominations don't stop the fact there are Catholic people who are good people who do not judge and persecute, but support their community and non-catholics.
EVERY religion has that problem as it's the people who make the religion. People make choices, including ones of faith. Some people make choices that do not benefit others. Some people distort a belief system to gain superiority from others (lots of the persecution issues I think stem from that). There are some weak willed people who do follow a faith because they were swept up in the wave made from a particular religion. But then again those are the same people who would have been swept up by anything that draws them in and accepts them.
I just can't agree to an over-generalization of this issue as there are way too many parameters that fall into place. Also it's easier to hear about the negative aspects since that's what gets in the news. You find all kinds of people in religion, just like you find all kinds of people everywhere else. You might see it one way due to your own personal experiences. I have seen more than one side to this issue and try to keep an open mind regarding religion.
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When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:23:19]
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:42:10] |
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| reply to nc1165
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years. |
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 deltat2000Timor Omnis AbestoPremium
join:2000-04-13
127.0.0.1 | reply to DannyBoy5
Re: Religion responsible for more deaths? Please quote your historic references for this statement!
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The Future Is Purchased By The Present! |
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 banditws6Shrinking Time and DistancePremium
join:2001-08-18
Frisco, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to mags2
Re: Church members said by mags2:
I believe in God, I do not -however- believe in having what I should think, do or say dictated to me by any particular religious affiliation. It is entirely up to me what choices I make and the consequences of those choices are between me and whatever divine entity I choose to believe in----whether it's J.C. or Buddha or Allah. What makes you weak willed or weak minded is when you blindly follow the mob doing and thinking precisely as they do without thinking about the consequences of those actions yourself.
Now you're making sense; I think I misread you before. Those are also my thoughts exactly. I believe in the concept of morality and spirituality, but have never been a fan of organized religion. I had a big dose of that growing up and it seemed odd the way everybody just followed the leader without ever caring why they were told to perform a certain religious act. I prefer to have a reason to believe something (a reason besides "everybody else is doing it").
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein |
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nc1165
join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL | reply to Anonymous Dude
said by Anonymous Dude:
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.
The God given right to take the land at whatever cost, including the intentional spread of small pox among Native Americans, is what I am referring to. And as far as Communists are concerned, I've never known a single communist to strike out in the name and will of God to justify his heinous crimes. Despots and dictators are practically duty-bound to kill. That's why they are called despots and dictators. Religious leaders, OTOH, are bound to honor their religion and killing should be the last thing on their mind. They are held to a higher standard and should not be invoking the name of God to justify their crimes, which makes their being committed doubly horrible when compared with those crimes committed by people who proclaim no religion at all.
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If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood. |
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