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FifthE1ement
Tech Nut
join:2005-03-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

FifthE1ement to NormanS

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to NormanS

Re: International Speed Rates

said by NormanS:

said by FifthE1ement:

No offense bro but America is a huge country. We are BY FAR (FAAAAAAAAR) the largest country in that list. Therefore our ratio to land area is much better than any of those countries! We are probably the fastest country by speed vs land area. It's easy for countries the size of one of our states each to roll out an advanced network. It's much harder to do that over the land area that is 100X the size of all those other countries COMBINED!

Based on comparison of the population density of New York City, New York, vs. Tokyo, Japan, vs. Seoul, South Korea, NYC should have HSI speed/cost at a comparable level to comparable cities. But if we put all of our HSI CAPEX into our few metro areas, what would be left for the suburbs and exurbs? And that is ignoring rural altogether.

It's not just the size, but the metro/suburb ratio.

But your comparing an old city, which has an ancient infrasturcture to two newly redone cities, Seoul and Tokyo. New York is so far behind in technology that it will probably almost never be rewired for FTTH, but rather providers are using LTE. It's kinda like comparing America's nanny state (becoming) system to Norway. Their country is so small that the Nanny state almost works, whereas in the US we are simply too large to implement and control it, which is why it's bankrupting us and destroying our economy.

5th

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

Seoul dates back to the Paekche era; as old as 18 BCE. Tokyo dates back to the Edo period; possibly as early as 1180 CE.

While the Vikings likely came to Newfoundland ca. 1000 CE, they did not stay; and the next Europeans to arrive in the Americas were the Spaniards in 1492 CE.

New York City, as New Amsterdam, wasn't founded until at least 1624 CE.

Yes, Seoul and Tokyo were recently rebuilt; but what do you think is happening in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy?

Look, I am not completely at odds with you. Both Japan and South Korea have a higher percentage of urbanized population. We have people who expect Santa Cruz, Half Moon Bay, and Etna to match Japanese and Korean Internet speeds: Not happening in my grand nephews and nieces lifetimes.

Pacomartin
join:2013-03-18
Bethlehem, PA

Pacomartin to FifthE1ement

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to FifthE1ement
said by FifthE1ement:

No offense bro but America is a huge country. We are BY FAR (FAAAAAAAAR) the largest country in that list. Therefore our ratio to land area is much better than any of those countries! We are probably the fastest country by speed vs land area.

Still, Latvia's accomplishment is impressive.

URBANIZATION RATES
South Korea 83.2%
Japan 91.3%
Hong Kong 100%
Latvia 67.7%
Switzerland 73.7%
Netherlands 83.2%
United States 82.4%
Denmark 86.9%
Sweden 85.2%
Finland 83.7%
...
Norway 79.4%
Belgium 97.5%
Estonia 69.5%
Lithuania 67.1%

C_Chipperson
Monster Rain
Premium Member
join:2009-01-17
00000

C_Chipperson to Pacomartin

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to Pacomartin
Just compiled this list for my own curiosity (Areas from wikipedia)

URBANIZATION RATES      Land area (Sq Mi)
South Korea 83.2%                38,691
Japan 91.3%                     145,925
Hong Kong 100%                      426
Latvia 67.7%                     24,938
Switzerland 73.7%                15,940
Netherlands 83.2%                16,039
Denmark 86.9%                    16,562
Sweden 85.2%                    173,745
Finland 83.7%                   130,596
Norway 79.4%                    148,720
Belgium 97.5%                    11,787
Estonia 69.5%                    17,413
Lithuania 67.1%                  25,212
Sum:                            765,994
 
 
United States 82.4%           3,794,101
 

Pacomartin
join:2013-03-18
Bethlehem, PA

Pacomartin

Member

said by C_Chipperson:

Just compiled this list for my own curiosity

There is no question that both North and South America have vast areas of lightly populated land. India has 1.2 billion people while the entire Western Hemisphere has fewer than 1 billion, yet the Western Hemisphere has 13 times the land area of India.

RAW DENSITY NUMBERS ARE NOT EVERYTHING

But roughly 25% of citizens of the USA live on 1% of the land area. There are many indications that the USA is not keeping pace with some other countries. The incredibly high prices of cable, and the stubborn resistance to giving up cable networks that are bloated.

Netflix is going to make a full frontal assault on HBO/Cinemax. It may force HBO to offer their "HBO Go" ala carte to anyone with internet access. In turn this may start a full scale dismemberment of the current system, as every company will fear losing a base. This will force more widespread availability of high speed internet.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

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to FifthE1ement
said by FifthE1ement:

But your comparing an old city, which has an ancient infrasturcture to two newly redone cities, Seoul and Tokyo. New York is so far behind in technology that it will probably almost never be rewired for FTTH, but rather providers are using LTE.

Sandy did a good job of demolishing much of the old infrastructure in NYC and the surrounding areas. Verizon has proven your point by refusing to replace/repair the demolished infrastructure that is under their control. If you can't or don't want to use a wireless service in those areas, you simply don't/won't have phone or Internet service. Given that precedent, I would not be surprised at all if AT&T responded similarly to the next major weather disaster in areas where they are the ILEC.

C_Chipperson
Monster Rain
Premium Member
join:2009-01-17
00000

C_Chipperson to Pacomartin

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to Pacomartin
said by Pacomartin:

said by C_Chipperson:

Just compiled this list for my own curiosity

...

RAW DENSITY NUMBERS ARE NOT EVERYTHING...

Like i said, it was for my own curiosity and the benefit of the discussion...

FifthE1ement
Tech Nut
join:2005-03-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

FifthE1ement to NormanS

Member

to NormanS
said by NormanS:

Seoul dates back to the Paekche era; as old as 18 BCE. Tokyo dates back to the Edo period; possibly as early as 1180 CE.

While the Vikings likely came to Newfoundland ca. 1000 CE, they did not stay; and the next Europeans to arrive in the Americas were the Spaniards in 1492 CE.

New York City, as New Amsterdam, wasn't founded until at least 1624 CE.

Yes, Seoul and Tokyo were recently rebuilt; but what do you think is happening in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy?

Look, I am not completely at odds with you. Both Japan and South Korea have a higher percentage of urbanized population. We have people who expect Santa Cruz, Half Moon Bay, and Etna to match Japanese and Korean Internet speeds: Not happening in my grand nephews and nieces lifetimes.

New York was barely hit at all compared to New Jersey. Seoul and Tokyo have been revamped over the years, however New York has never been (other than maybe one of the burrows).

And I don't see cheap and widespread internet coming for at least another decade or two. Maybe when all carriers get LTE-Advanced installed and nationwide but even then I don't see it happening. Cable will continue to dominate as docsis 3 will eventually go to docsis 3.1, 4, etc and cable operators will continue to gain faster speeds. DSL will be dead unless operators come out with a new method for pushing more speed through old (ancient) copper phone lines. So I think fixed LTE(A = might be another 5 years till the Advanced, lol) and cable will be the infrastructure in the US for the foreseeable future. I really wish some of the operators would start deploying FTTH but I doubt it will ever happen until they reach a cap on DOCSIS. I mean eventually even 1Gbps will be slow to us, but who knows when? I remember when my 3Mb/768Kbps DSL line was fast! Now coming from getting 55Mb/11Mb I don't think I could go back, lol. Eventually it will be that way with super fast speeds! I mean if they expect 4K to go over our current infrastructure they have another thing coming...

5th

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS

MVM

said by FifthE1ement:

... I don't see cheap and widespread internet coming for at least another decade or two ...

That is about the time frame for Sonic.net fiber to reach the South S.F. Bay Area.

Pacomartin
join:2013-03-18
Bethlehem, PA

Pacomartin to C_Chipperson

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to C_Chipperson
said by C_Chipperson:

Like i said, it was for my own curiosity and the benefit of the discussion...

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult.

I just hear people bring up this "raw density" argument for every single infrastructure question. It doesn't matter if it is for high speed rail, high speed internet, or mass transit for commuting.

LAX is choked with small planes going to Santa Barbara (89 miles), San Diego (125 miles) and Las Vegas (236 miles) because unlike the rest of the civilized world there is no infrastructure.

I know the USA is not Japan, just like the entire Western Hemisphere is not Asia, but the "density argument" is overused.