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This is a sub-selection from Church members


BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
reply to DaSneaky1D

Re: Church members

Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics.
My opinions and beliefs are probably outside what most religions choose to believe or hold dear. I would classify myself as an "educated agnostic".
I believe that objectivity is paramount when discussing religion though, and that one should be willing to accept varying religious beliefs as being at least as valid as any other.
I believe that they all have their good points, but they all have idiosyncracies as well.
They all have as many similarities as differences also.
But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause.
One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....

DannyBoy5

join:2000-11-29
Malabar, FL

Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11]


mags2
Agent Provocateur

join:2001-07-19
SoCal
reply to BrianDamage06

Religious discussions are always going to attract those of varying opinions, including atheists/agnostics....But the only thing that has been certain throughout the course of human history as we know it is that religion, in its' varying degrees of philosophy, has been responsible for more deaths of human beings than any other single cause. One should also be prepared to accept criticism as much as support in issues such as these.



Well said, BrianDamage. I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.
--
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson


nc1165

join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL
reply to DannyBoy5
That BS! Never heard the term "manifest destiny"? How about reading of the Crusades? I should know better than to respond to a guy that starts sentences with "Let's see...". It's condescending and reflects myopic tendencies toward new or unfamiliar ideas.

The forum mods should consider removing this thread.
--
If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.


DaSneaky1D
what's up
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to mags2
You all are right. "Religion" has been the named cause of horrible acts throughout history. Or rather, the people behind the "religion". I wonder what your excuses would be for horrible acts caused by people without "religion".

It's one think to hold an opinion. It's quite another to vocalize it in a fashion as to draw a flame. Regardless of what beliefs people may hold, boldly calling someone "weak-willed/weak minded" is an insult. Personally I don't trip. That just showed your charature as a person. But, there are millions of upstanding people that integrate a spiritual routine in their lives that are well beyond "weak-willed/weak minded" that may be offended.
--
-- Someday, I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever.
Man, PHP rocks!


BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
reply to DannyBoy5
Some of what you say is accurate, some not. Do you even know who Pol Pot is, or did you just happen to hear AL Franken mention him when he addressed the NPC?
No matter. We could debate motivations all day of the people you mentioned. But, yes, some of them had some religious motivations.
Hitler- Christian "Aryan" supremacy, son of a Jewish mother, whom he regarded as a whore, which perpetuated his hatred of Jews. Is this not religious motivation?
I would like to point out that the battle between the supremacy of Christianity and all other religions HAVE killed more folks than any other single reason.
I don't disagree that world leaders have not killed in the name of power, but it has not killed as many people as religion has, in my opinion. My opinion is based of the events of human history.
This killing continues today....Northern Ireland, Middle East, Asia, the Pacific Rim, the list goes on and on....
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....


SRFireside

join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX

reply to mags2
said by mags2:
I have always subscribed to the idea that religion -generally speaking- kills a thinking mind dead and the only way most acolytes of the faith can keep it together is to prosecute, proselytize and otherwise eradicate those who believe anything different.

It's the people, not the religion, that makes your statement true. Catholicism is made up of a group of people who view God in a certain way and want to worship in that way. There are those in the Catholic faith who have abused and distorted that to gain wealth and power. The rise of the Catholic church during the medieval era comes to mind as well as the Crusades. These abominations don't stop the fact there are Catholic people who are good people who do not judge and persecute, but support their community and non-catholics.

EVERY religion has that problem as it's the people who make the religion. People make choices, including ones of faith. Some people make choices that do not benefit others. Some people distort a belief system to gain superiority from others (lots of the persecution issues I think stem from that). There are some weak willed people who do follow a faith because they were swept up in the wave made from a particular religion. But then again those are the same people who would have been swept up by anything that draws them in and accepts them.

I just can't agree to an over-generalization of this issue as there are way too many parameters that fall into place. Also it's easier to hear about the negative aspects since that's what gets in the news. You find all kinds of people in religion, just like you find all kinds of people everywhere else. You might see it one way due to your own personal experiences. I have seen more than one side to this issue and try to keep an open mind regarding religion.
--
When do I get my freakin' third star?!?!?

[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:23:19]

[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:42:10]


Anonymous Dude

@rtviz.com
reply to nc1165
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.


deltat2000
Timor Omnis Abesto
Premium
join:2000-04-13
127.0.0.1
reply to DannyBoy5

Re: Religion responsible for more deaths?

Please quote your historic references for this statement!
--
The Future Is Purchased By The Present!


nc1165

join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL
reply to Anonymous Dude

Re: Church members

said by Anonymous Dude:
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.
The God given right to take the land at whatever cost, including the intentional spread of small pox among Native Americans, is what I am referring to. And as far as Communists are concerned, I've never known a single communist to strike out in the name and will of God to justify his heinous crimes. Despots and dictators are practically duty-bound to kill. That's why they are called despots and dictators. Religious leaders, OTOH, are bound to honor their religion and killing should be the last thing on their mind. They are held to a higher standard and should not be invoking the name of God to justify their crimes, which makes their being committed doubly horrible when compared with those crimes committed by people who proclaim no religion at all.
--
If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.


no1ukn0w
Whats This?

join:2002-01-24
Boerne, TX
reply to SRFireside
"It's the people, not the religion, that makes your statement true. "

Once again to the question of "do guns kill people or do people kill people?".. Your statement is so true. No religion or belief has ever killed anyone.. the person killed the other.. Religion is a set of words .. words don't kill people.

And I am sure mags2 will try to find some way to argue this point.. but any logical thinking person would see this.


mags2
Agent Provocateur

join:2001-07-19
SoCal

Church Chat


And I am sure mags2 will try to find some way to argue this point.. but any logical thinking person would see this.



Oh well allow me to retort. So, by inference here, I'm "arguing" a point. Tell me then, what is it exactly that you're doing? Besides riding someone else's coat-tails, that is. You know you opened yourself wide open for a flame by implying that anyone who disagrees with you and your bud is illogical so please, no whining. On second thought, nevermind; Don't bother replying.
--
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to DannyBoy5

Re: Church members

said by DannyBoy:
Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
I'm afraid I'd have to agree... you're focusing on modern history. You have to remember that throughout the ages, more people are murdered "In the name of God" then any other reason.

Remember that Religion doesn't mean truth. Religion is often just the empty form and ritual that has been used to twist and bury the truth. There are many obviously "religiously devout" human beings who obviously don't know much about God...


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to mags2

Re: Church Chat

said by mags2:
You know you opened yourself wide open for a flame by implying that anyone who disagrees with you and your bud is illogical so please, no whining. On second thought, nevermind; Don't bother replying.
Hmmm and what exactly did *you* do when you stated (in even less words) that anyone with religious beliefs are "weak willed" and obviously don't have a thinking mind? Pot calling the Kettle black a bit, eh? I mean you don't have to hold any religious beliefs at all to realize that being a hypocrite is an expression of character.... or lack thereof.

Nobody is perfect, but try not to shove your foot in your mouth if you can.


mags2
Agent Provocateur

join:2001-07-19
SoCal


try not to shove your foot in your mouth if you can.

Thanks for chiming in, chum. I will if you will.
--
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty. -T.Jefferson


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Nice editing!


no1ukn0w
Whats This?

join:2002-01-24
Boerne, TX

reply to mags2
Read my message again.. apparently you have problems reading what other people say. Apparently you only read THE PARTS YOU WANT TO OBJECT TO.. but maybe you will read this, since it was my point (I will put it in bold, maybe that will help you understand my point too).

No religion or belief has ever killed anyone.. the person killed the other.. Religion is a set of words .. words don't kill people.

See it that time? If you are still confused. That is to the response of you saying, religion has killed more people than anything else.

I didn't open myself wide open. As you can see no one else flamed me, you on the other hand are getting flamed up and down.

oh ya, I can reply to what I please, don't tell me what to do, kthx
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 21:13:20]


ewwww

@dsl.sndg02.pacbell.n
reply to Anonymous Dude

Re: Church members

You want to know what it's like to BE a scientologist? How do they rationalize their actions?

I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists.

FDR
Truman
Eisenhower
JFK
LBJ
Nixon
Reagan
GB sr.
Clinton
GB jr.

Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more. As Americans, we love conflict, but we need to justify it with some moral conviction. We have so much faith that we're right that these killings don't even factor into our discussions of political deaths. I'm sure, as they read down the list, most people were already rationalizing what each of those men did. That's what faith does.

This is how people can join organizations like the scientologists. When you get brainwashed, how will you know whether you're really thinking or just rationalizing your faith.

finortis

join:2001-11-30
reply to nc1165
Then one can throw in the "divine right of kings" and all that could lead too....

But as to Hitler and the Nazis, lets see the Swatsticka, where I have seen that before (not in Nazi Germany), but it's symbolic meaning....the origins of much of the symbology used. If some were right the Io Hitler might have had religious significance, and that there were those in the Nazi party practitioners of "black magic"... I won't state it is or isn't so as such, but if one were to look for the history of some of the symbology and the like, they might find something of interest in seeing what preceded some of what was presented....

finortis

join:2001-11-30
reply to KrK
You know what I find interesting, and some might chose to take it with a grain of salt without a provided reference, which I don't have in front of me (lets just say I've read a lot over the years, and even decades).

Purportedly, Mahatma Gahndi was considering converting to Christianity...but in the end he basically said to the effect of "Christians seem to take an innoculation of truth as testimoney against the real thing...." But he went on to say that even as the defects of Christianity were becomming apparent to him, so the defects of Hinduism were becoming increasingly apparent to him as well.... Supposedly (where did I see this), some weren't happy that he should have dared to say this...and yet one can also wonder who might have been closer to the source, if you will, in all this as well...


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
I also heard a quote attributed to Ghandi (and I also am not sure how true it is) but it went like this...

"If the world met the Christ of Christianity today, they would embrace him, but instead they meet the Christians of Christianity, and are turned away."

While I understand what he is saying, I'm still not so sure about the first part.


Eatmeingreek
Gentard

join:2001-06-29
San Francisco, CA
reply to ewwww
said by ewwww:
I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists...Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more.
Stalin alone killed 10 million of his own people. You lose.
--
What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language? - Private Frost, from the movie Aliens

xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

reply to DannyBoy5
said by DannyBoy:
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11]

Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.
I can't spell and know it so please save that comment.


Jamming777$
Time Is Running Out
Premium
join:2001-07-25
USA
said by Linuvas:

Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.

Stalin was an avowed athiest, the official view of the Communist Party of the former Soviet Union, Hitler killed out of a psuedo-scientific theory and personal beliefs not as a religious leader. The Inquisition which one the Roman or the Spanish? Or one of the other smaller ones? Most of the inquisitions were condemned at the time by the Roman Catholic religious leaders of their own time even. The IRA which wing or party of the IRA, some fight for ethnic reasons against the Orangemen, some are Communistic, and some are Religiously based.

Crusades were not so much about massacres, there were a few but that was how wars were fought then when cities that resisted in a siege were taken. It was considered that if you didn't resist you would be spared the sacking and pillaging, wars between Christians were even fought that way. Many people here are ignorant of the political and social realities of the period's that they are citing in their opinions.

But tell me this, do you like the "Song Amazing Grace", it was written by a former Slave Ship Captain, a Scotsman. He was writing about how that things we consider normal for our times may be transcended, by God's Love and his gift of "Grace". It is placing your trust in something other than your own abilities, because some where along the line you are going to fail. God makes things work out in the evils of all times, God is not religion. His will can be thwarted because He gave us the freedom to choose wrongly, even those that speak in his name. But "Grace" allows all of us to move beyond the facts and opinions, we or others hold, by trusting for the future.

Weak-willed? HA! try trusting some one other than yourself for your future and happiness, I bet you wouldn't last an hour.
--
Jamming *Team Z Member*