Re: No Class in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r2825163 en Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:24:46 EDT Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:24:46 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877091 BrianDamage : I will concede that to "varying degrees" like you describe, that these problems exist on other levels. I don't remember ever having dismissed that.
But, they are as not as significant as is religion in its' base forms, however.
A lot of organizations, individuals, chapters, etc., that you describe base their philosophies and by-laws, etc., on laws that are otherwise founded in religious principles.
My most poignant point is that out of all reasons people may have to do what they do, justify their actions, and legitimize their philosophy(ies), etc., they all mostly have a basis in some religious belief or another.
Sinn Fein did what they did out of religious belief. The PLO do what they do out of religious belief. The Israelis and the Jews do what they do out of religious belief. UBL, AlQuada, and the Taliban do what they do out of religious belief. We do what we do out of religious belief. These are all obviously recent examples. I could go on.
That's my point.
I also believe though that many religions of today have been horribly perverted from their original intents. Islam is a good example of this. Guys like Mullah Mohammed OMar and Usama bin Laden have twisted the Muslim religion to suit their own ends, just as many others have. Yassar Arafat, Benjamin Netanyahu, Saddam Hussein, and even Ariel Sharon are guilty of this, in my opinion.
That's a whole other rant. But I hope you see what I am trying to point out here.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2877091 Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:31:17 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2869388 SAM Hunter$ : You miss the point.

You said that you can't belong to any religion because... "I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them."

The exact same thing you've said about religion is true about all organizations to various degrees with regards to chapters, individuals, certain representatives and so on. Everyone of them have people or representatives, (no matter how few or non-representative of the majority) who "perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder." Therefore, you couldn't belong to anything like the NRA, ACLU, Masons, NAACP, etc.

Your standards are unreasonable and the basis for your conclusion is illogical because of reasons I've stated. By your logic and standard religion is no different than any other organization in the context of those attitudes and hypocrisy they perpetuate at some level.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-27 17:23:31]
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2869388 Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:24:31 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2867099 BrianDamage : I thought we were talking about religion here.
"Substitute" this for that....okay, I can do that. I will address what you said.
I agree, hypocrisy exists in those areas you mentioned also. No doubt.
The Kennedy family is a perfect example of it. The NAACP is a good example of it...so is the ACLU, the political parties, and so on.
However, what do the core values of most of the parties mentioned have in common as a basis for their direction? Religion, in one form or another.
What has the present administration been talking about so much since Mr. Bush took office?
What has this war with Afghanistan meant for people? For most, it has religious significance. Some say that this is the US war against Islam, said by some to justify further terrorist acts against US targets and spur further US resentment of their actions....The US has waged a campaign to dispel these rumors that it is NOT a war against Islam, but of terrorism.
Yes, in the US, we are discriminately tolerant. What I mean is, we are tolerant when it suits us.
It is the same in this instance. It just so happens that this war and its' consequences are the most visible in the media today.
When you break this situation down to its' basic level, it is about religion. The Taliban and Al Quada used Islam as reason for what they perpetrated against us.
We use Christianity to justify our responses.
Our government is based on Christian principles, just as many Arab country's government are based on Muslim principles, and they are equally credited with political influence.
Many of those other groups of which you speak are the same.
The logic is to realize how religion has affected the operation as well as the creation and administration of government over the course of our history.
Anyone that says there is a bigger influence than religion in the formation of governments is ignoring the basic significance of their creation.
I would like for someone to point out more governments based on principles that don't have a basis in religious conviction than governments that do-
But I don't think anyone can.
That's my point....it's the underlying religious significance that brings the most to bear on an individual government's (and other groups, like the ones mentioned) ideaology and direction.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2867099 Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:00:06 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2862208 SAM Hunter$ :
said by BrianDamage:
If you want to be Christian, fine....Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Branch Davidian, whatever....it's all fine. You have that choice. If you think Scientology is a religion and you want to belong to that, fine....
But, I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them.
You are being illogical. Just substitute "religion" with "conservative", "liberal", "NAACP", "NRA", "ACLU", "Democrat", "Republican" and so on. The same could be said for all of them as well as any other group. They all have a core set of values and beliefs but on an individual basis there are a lot of members and even representatives that have those negative beliefs and attitudes you speak about. Therefore you could not belong to any of those groups or any other group for that matter. Hypocrisy is an equal opportunity emotion and attitude.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2862208 Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:38:43 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849210 BrianDamage : Yeah, you could.
I agree with you that "philosophies" or "religions" can be taken out of context, used as motivation to justify murder, etc.
This is an argument about religion. It's a matter of what you choose to believe.
If you want to be Christian, fine....Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Branch Davidian, whatever....it's all fine. You have that choice. If you think Scientology is a religion and you want to belong to that, fine....
But, I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them.
Oral Roberts said, "I saw a 900 foot Jesus in Tulsa, Oklahoma". His nurse said, "take your medicine, Mr. Roberts."
Some other TV evangelist (I had a brain-fart at the moment and can't remember the name), said that unless the could raise a million bucks in thirty days, that God would kill him (this was probably 5-7 years ago, and some of you posters may remember the incident I recall here), and he is *STILL* here....
It demonstrates that unscrupulous people have used religion to take advantage of others also, for purposes of money and power, and this has happened for as long as religion has existed, which has been pretty much since the dawn of man.
Like I said, believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2849210 Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:02:49 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837604 finortis : And Richard Nixon (who not only got impeachment charges brought against him for Watergate, but also for abusing the IRS tax auditing system to "deal with" "political enemies" was just as much a conservative as Ted Kennedy was a liberal. And in the end, I wouldn't view either as better... And does anyone know be it the party affiliation, or whether Hoover would have classified himself as a conservative or liberal? With people like Hoover though, it little matters either way. Cointelpro was still Cointelpro, and his dealings were exactly what they were....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2837604 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:08:45 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2836305 Anubis Prime : But...uhh...

I know how the '3 in 1' Jesus/Christian thing is unbelievable to some (especially the Phoenicians), but Hubbard said that Xenu, an evil intergalactic ruler banished humans to Earth 75,000,000 years ago, and that he (Hubbard) discovered 'implants' that were placed in humans (being nothing but bundles of intergalactic spirits) to track us, and that there is still some alien being imprisoned in a mountain on Earth somewhere.

Hell I could write a couple of Star Trek novels, and then claim that I had been contacted by "Kronax, the god of small electronics and handheld devices".

It's not an argument about religion. When the scientologists want to promote mainstream acceptance, they refer to it as 'a philosophy'...other times it's a 'religion'.

Do a search online and you will find people harassed, stalked and litigated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2836305 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:06:53 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2833701 BrianDamage : I am not defending Scientologists or any other religion.
As a matter of fact, I was pointing out how dishonest and unscrupulous many within various religions can be.
There are many more who practice "legitimate" religions that are not this way.
All I was saying though is that is premature to dismiss all religion as bringing some good to people just because of the actions of a few people or by the philosophies of some otherwise far-out religions.
All of us have had some good points. I see many of them.
I agree that some religions are excuses to take advantage of the weak-minded, the gullible, the rich, etc.
But the God I believe in ain't short of cash, mister.
Another point of note I made is that of agreement with the original poster of this thread....if they can't take criticism of their religion or otherwise explain it away, then it is not much of a credible "religion" at all, but could be spawns of other motivations, such as money, power, etc., in much the same ways that the most murderous leaders of our times have used religion to justify their actions and direction.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2833701 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:50:48 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2832873 Anubis Prime : This is what happens when you believe that the Psychlos are coming to destroy us all in the year 3000.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2832873 Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:09:43 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829533 KrK : Unlike Conservatives, who are all perfect, all knowing, and never do anything wrong. Ever. Until they get caught.

BTW Wasn't Jesus called a liberal... a radical... oh yes, in fact he WAS, wasn't he...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829533 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:30:36 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829509 KrK : I think it's more of the classic "We know WE are right, so you all are WRONG and we MUST re-educate you".... etc

The problem is simple, once people believe they are chosen of God, then that means everything they do is O.K. and is the "will of God."

More will be misled and perish due to religion then any other means available to man. Religion is empty form and ritual and often does nothing more then separate man from the truth! Fastest way to bury the truth is build up a massive layer of religion around it....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2829509 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:26:10 EDT Re: Fair Game http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2828535 Doctor Four : There actually is a tactic used by the "Church" of
$cientology that goes by this name. It involves using
the Court system to silence any of their critics. In
doing so, they are violating others' 1st Amendment rights.
This organization, described as crackpots, idiotic, and
other similar epithets is by definition a religious cult,
and one of the accusations levelled at them is that they
exert mind control over their participants. On the Web,
they've used SLAPP lawsuits and now the DMCA to censor
their critics, and in an extreme case of what can only
be called body snatching, they shut down and took over
the Cult Awareness Network's website - it is now manned
by $cientologists. Yet another accusation directed at
them is that they are scamming people out of their
money. In some countries, most notably Germany, the group's
members have been arrested and the practice outright
banned. The A&E Cable TV network did a 2 hour investigative
report on $cientology: a lot of this information came from
that investigation, with the help of ex-$cientologists
and critics alike. The A&E program was called Investigative
Reports: Inside Scientology, and the video can be ordered
from their website
(for anyone who is interested).
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"Kayura or Badamon, whichever you are, you should know that I will never give up this battle. By the will of the Ancient, I shall succeed!" - Shuten (Anubis) from the Ronin Warriors.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 18:31:38]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2828535 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:14:21 EDT Re: Fair Game http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2827983 anon : Ha ha ha! "Fair Game" is a great choice of words...visit Xenu.Com and see how L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of the Church of Scientology used the phrase fair game...it's scary stuff.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2827983 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:02:21 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825279 jhudson2 : I know there are lots of famous high-profile Catholic liberals and Protestant liberals and Jewish liberals and Muslim liberals and maybe some Hindu liberals and certainly at least one Buddhist liberal. But I'm sure they just pay lip service to aspects of personal behavior and attitudes that their respective religions endorse.

Cause they're liberals ya know.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825279 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:03:17 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825242 Ray : The "fair use" wasn't in reference to your post, it was meant as the basis for the copyright infringement charges. Exactly how much can you paste onto your website before fair use becomes a copyright violation?
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I meant to do that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825242 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:58:18 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825163 BrianDamage : Pay closer attention. I said fair game, not "fair use".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825163 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:48:37 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825096 Ray : I didn't say what they did was illegal, just questionable! Exactly what is "fair use"?
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I meant to do that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2825096 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:36:55 EDT Re: No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824925 BrianDamage : Yeah, it would seem as yet another abuse contributable to overzealous attitudes of recent memory. (9/11, etc.)
But I agree that if they don't want their practices scrutinized, then they should be practicing them.
The Catholic Church has existed much longer and it is not without unscrupulous members, and has been subject to criticism as much as it has been subject to support, as well.
We could argue that point for just about every religion that exists today.
It's fair game, and if it can be proven that illegal activities take place in the practice of the religion, or by people associated with the religion but not necessarily in the practice of it, then these people should pay the price.
If these religions have questionable, possibly fraudulent or illegal tactics, then it should be brought to light.
I don't think it's any coincidence though that these Scientologists target actors and actresses, musicians, etc., for inclusion, because-
1. They are mostly devout liberals,
2. They have lots of cash, and
3. The principles of Scientology agree with aspects of
personal behaviours and attitudes that other churches
or religions would not endorse.

That's just my opinion.
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We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824925 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:14:00 EDT No Class http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824802 Ray : If the only way a "religion" can deal with opposing viewpoints is by having them removed by questionable legal means, it says to me that they don't think their beliefs can withstand scrutiny. Such a profound lack of confidence in one's own belief system isn't exactly a glowing advertisement.

Yet another abuse of the DMCA (Digital Millennium Castration Act) to suppress free speech.
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I meant to do that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,2824802 Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:53:18 EDT