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This is a sub-selection from Church members

DannyBoy5

join:2000-11-29
Malabar, FL

reply to BrianDamage06

Re: Church members

Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11]


nc1165

join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL
That BS! Never heard the term "manifest destiny"? How about reading of the Crusades? I should know better than to respond to a guy that starts sentences with "Let's see...". It's condescending and reflects myopic tendencies toward new or unfamiliar ideas.

The forum mods should consider removing this thread.
--
If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.


BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
reply to DannyBoy5
Some of what you say is accurate, some not. Do you even know who Pol Pot is, or did you just happen to hear AL Franken mention him when he addressed the NPC?
No matter. We could debate motivations all day of the people you mentioned. But, yes, some of them had some religious motivations.
Hitler- Christian "Aryan" supremacy, son of a Jewish mother, whom he regarded as a whore, which perpetuated his hatred of Jews. Is this not religious motivation?
I would like to point out that the battle between the supremacy of Christianity and all other religions HAVE killed more folks than any other single reason.
I don't disagree that world leaders have not killed in the name of power, but it has not killed as many people as religion has, in my opinion. My opinion is based of the events of human history.
This killing continues today....Northern Ireland, Middle East, Asia, the Pacific Rim, the list goes on and on....
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....


Anonymous Dude

@rtviz.com
reply to nc1165
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.


deltat2000
Timor Omnis Abesto
Premium
join:2000-04-13
127.0.0.1
reply to DannyBoy5

Re: Religion responsible for more deaths?

Please quote your historic references for this statement!
--
The Future Is Purchased By The Present!


nc1165

join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL
reply to Anonymous Dude

Re: Church members

said by Anonymous Dude:
Manifest Destiny was never a religious concept. Several centuries of Crusades couldn't not kill even a tiny fraction of the number of people that the Communists in 80 years.
The God given right to take the land at whatever cost, including the intentional spread of small pox among Native Americans, is what I am referring to. And as far as Communists are concerned, I've never known a single communist to strike out in the name and will of God to justify his heinous crimes. Despots and dictators are practically duty-bound to kill. That's why they are called despots and dictators. Religious leaders, OTOH, are bound to honor their religion and killing should be the last thing on their mind. They are held to a higher standard and should not be invoking the name of God to justify their crimes, which makes their being committed doubly horrible when compared with those crimes committed by people who proclaim no religion at all.
--
If my enemy cuts me, I will drown him in my own blood.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to DannyBoy5
said by DannyBoy:
Religion responsible for more deaths that anything else? Let's see, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... what religion were they using to justify their acts? The truth is that they were all out for power, nothing else. Now, as it has been for some time, most "religious" killing is in the name of Allah.
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
I'm afraid I'd have to agree... you're focusing on modern history. You have to remember that throughout the ages, more people are murdered "In the name of God" then any other reason.

Remember that Religion doesn't mean truth. Religion is often just the empty form and ritual that has been used to twist and bury the truth. There are many obviously "religiously devout" human beings who obviously don't know much about God...


ewwww

@dsl.sndg02.pacbell.n
reply to Anonymous Dude
You want to know what it's like to BE a scientologist? How do they rationalize their actions?

I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists.

FDR
Truman
Eisenhower
JFK
LBJ
Nixon
Reagan
GB sr.
Clinton
GB jr.

Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more. As Americans, we love conflict, but we need to justify it with some moral conviction. We have so much faith that we're right that these killings don't even factor into our discussions of political deaths. I'm sure, as they read down the list, most people were already rationalizing what each of those men did. That's what faith does.

This is how people can join organizations like the scientologists. When you get brainwashed, how will you know whether you're really thinking or just rationalizing your faith.

finortis

join:2001-11-30
reply to nc1165
Then one can throw in the "divine right of kings" and all that could lead too....

But as to Hitler and the Nazis, lets see the Swatsticka, where I have seen that before (not in Nazi Germany), but it's symbolic meaning....the origins of much of the symbology used. If some were right the Io Hitler might have had religious significance, and that there were those in the Nazi party practitioners of "black magic"... I won't state it is or isn't so as such, but if one were to look for the history of some of the symbology and the like, they might find something of interest in seeing what preceded some of what was presented....

finortis

join:2001-11-30
reply to KrK
You know what I find interesting, and some might chose to take it with a grain of salt without a provided reference, which I don't have in front of me (lets just say I've read a lot over the years, and even decades).

Purportedly, Mahatma Gahndi was considering converting to Christianity...but in the end he basically said to the effect of "Christians seem to take an innoculation of truth as testimoney against the real thing...." But he went on to say that even as the defects of Christianity were becomming apparent to him, so the defects of Hinduism were becoming increasingly apparent to him as well.... Supposedly (where did I see this), some weren't happy that he should have dared to say this...and yet one can also wonder who might have been closer to the source, if you will, in all this as well...


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
I also heard a quote attributed to Ghandi (and I also am not sure how true it is) but it went like this...

"If the world met the Christ of Christianity today, they would embrace him, but instead they meet the Christians of Christianity, and are turned away."

While I understand what he is saying, I'm still not so sure about the first part.


Eatmeingreek
Gentard

join:2001-06-29
San Francisco, CA
reply to ewwww
said by ewwww:
I bet you that in the past 80 years capitalists have killed more than communists...Those are just some of the big american ones. Each have thousands of deaths in their name. Some have hundreds of thousands or more.
Stalin alone killed 10 million of his own people. You lose.
--
What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language? - Private Frost, from the movie Aliens

xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

reply to DannyBoy5
said by DannyBoy:
If you'd like to make the statement that more killing has been done in the name of religion that anything else, please include some facts to back it up.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-22 11:05:11]

Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.
I can't spell and know it so please save that comment.


Jamming777$
Time Is Running Out
Premium
join:2001-07-25
USA
said by Linuvas:

Please referance crusades 1-3, and follow that by most various fights between protestants and catholics, see also IRA, and lets take a look at the massacare of the jews under hitler, the Priest Stalin sent to Siberea, and we can top it all off with the inquisition.

Stalin was an avowed athiest, the official view of the Communist Party of the former Soviet Union, Hitler killed out of a psuedo-scientific theory and personal beliefs not as a religious leader. The Inquisition which one the Roman or the Spanish? Or one of the other smaller ones? Most of the inquisitions were condemned at the time by the Roman Catholic religious leaders of their own time even. The IRA which wing or party of the IRA, some fight for ethnic reasons against the Orangemen, some are Communistic, and some are Religiously based.

Crusades were not so much about massacres, there were a few but that was how wars were fought then when cities that resisted in a siege were taken. It was considered that if you didn't resist you would be spared the sacking and pillaging, wars between Christians were even fought that way. Many people here are ignorant of the political and social realities of the period's that they are citing in their opinions.

But tell me this, do you like the "Song Amazing Grace", it was written by a former Slave Ship Captain, a Scotsman. He was writing about how that things we consider normal for our times may be transcended, by God's Love and his gift of "Grace". It is placing your trust in something other than your own abilities, because some where along the line you are going to fail. God makes things work out in the evils of all times, God is not religion. His will can be thwarted because He gave us the freedom to choose wrongly, even those that speak in his name. But "Grace" allows all of us to move beyond the facts and opinions, we or others hold, by trusting for the future.

Weak-willed? HA! try trusting some one other than yourself for your future and happiness, I bet you wouldn't last an hour.
--
Jamming *Team Z Member*