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BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus to StuartMW

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to StuartMW

Re: Windows XP: Remove the Cable, Tape Up the Ethernet Port

In situations where they do not have to handle sensitive data the system can be left as legacy, like production, but fixing any problems with custom software is likely as expensive as if they had new custom software written. Sometimes it can be as easy as porting the software as long as the compilers are compatible, and they didn't use any shortcuts which seems to frequently be the problem as those tend to break when moved to a newer operating system.

A serial, and parallel card can be easily added to a desktop computer, otherwise as already stated there are adapters.

Even major 3rd party software vendors will drop support for the older operating systems, and start to use things like libraries and compilers which are supported in newer operating systems only leaving the legacy behind as they offer more features. Even with xp being nt, without the necessary support newer software might not run correctly on it anymore.

Anyone remember that recent huge exploit involving legacy 16-bit support leading to software escalation, but 64-bit wasn't affected as they dropped 16-bit support? To me it felt like it was something they knew about, but might have swept under the rug until somebody exploited it as it would have broken their core programming, if it wasn't put there intentionally. We all know sometimes they leave, or put things in there to bypass certain operations. Ctrl alt del wasn't something they originally planned on using, and was more of a debug feature.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

1 recommendation

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by BlitzenZeus:

Anyone remember that recent huge exploit involving legacy 16-bit support...

Yeah. The whole 16-bit support (ntvdm) mechanism was quite a hack albeit a necessary (legacy support) one.

. o O (Ahh the "good" ole days of real-mode segmented programming. Oh wait they sucked!)

antdude
Matrix Ant
Premium Member
join:2001-03-25
US

antdude to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
said by StuartMW:

Yeah well many seem to believe the day XP support ends all software on those boxes will die and the machines will burst into flames.

Support ended for Win2K a long time ago and my Win2K SP4 box continues to work. Granted it won't run a lot of newer software but that's not a security issue.

Do you use your W2K online though?
antdude

antdude to Dustyn

Premium Member

to Dustyn
said by Dustyn:

The worst part is having no upgrade path when it comes to IE8 on Windows XP. You're stuck with it if you choose to stick with XP. I'd love to get IE9 or IE10 on XP... just can't happen. At least there is Opera and Firefox.

For now...

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW to antdude

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to antdude
said by antdude:

Do you use your W2K online though?

Not much. When I do I use FF 12.0 (the last to run on Win2K).
StuartMW

StuartMW to antdude

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to antdude
said by antdude:

For now...

Well FF is still 32-bit (as are most browsers) so I'd expect it to run on WinXP for a while yet.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to BlitzenZeus

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to BlitzenZeus
said by BlitzenZeus:

Ctrl alt del wasn't something they originally planned on using, and was more of a debug feature.

Orange Book conformance required a 'secure attention key' for trusted login path. So you need to choose a key combination that hasn't been used for some significant pre-existing app. With the intended back-compatibility to DOS-based Windows, that choice is quite difficult. But there's one combo that apps never use: ctrl+alt+del.

So, maybe choosing ctrl+alt+del for the SAK was not originally planned, but the need for a SAK would have been there from the start (Cutler would have been aware of what grownup systems needed).

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by dave:

Orange Book conformance required a 'secure attention key'...

I remember well the number of times I needed to "gain the attention" of a hung MS-DOS program with Ctrl-Alt-Del
intok (banned)
join:2012-03-15

intok (banned) to BlitzenZeus

Member

to BlitzenZeus
Linux distros are only as heavy as you make them, theres no reason they can't use a light weight desktop environment like Mate, LXDE or XFCE and still have something that would be very familiar to someone that is used to XP.

That all depends on the specific software they need and if they want to be beholden to the decisions of some outside company or if they'd like to take more control over their data by moving to an open source solution that they can keep running forever on ever newer hardware if they need.

These organizations made the mistake of jumping on to the Microsoft bandwagon, if you buy into the monoculture you get the consequences of it as well.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

1 recommendation

PX Eliezer1 to BlitzenZeus

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to BlitzenZeus
said by BlitzenZeus:

Microsoft needs to make money to survive....

1) That ain't my problem. I'd rather my money go first to my family, and second to worthy causes like Sandy relief. And if Microsoft vanished tomorrow, the world would go on. Maybe even better as it would help other OS.

2) Car companies need to make money to survive. But I drive a car that is 20 years old but still runs OK. Again, it is not MY job to keep GM solvent.

3) One main reason I have not bought a new car is that the car buying experience is so unpleasant (dealers etc). Every time my wife or I bought cars it was bad, except for the time we got a Saturn. But GM destroyed Saturn. If the car companies want me to buy a new car, let them reform the way they sell them. Why can't I buy a car from Costco?

4) Which brings me back to Microsoft. Microsoft refused to provide a direct upgrade path from Windows XP to Windows 7. (I would have had to go through Vista as a middleman---Ugh, and no thanks).

Because MS refused to provide a direct upgrade path from WinXP to Win7, they can go to hell.

Trihexagonal5
join:2004-08-29
US

Trihexagonal5 to BlitzenZeus

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to BlitzenZeus
I'm running FreeBSD 9.1-RELEASE-p3 with XP era hardware on my PC, and Vista era on my laptop. I post screenshots in the UNIX forum every month showing top and the resources they use, which is minimal.

I'm currently using my laptop with 2 instances of Firefox open, with 3 windows open on each for a total of 6 windows. Firefox is using 341MB RAM out of 2GB, leaving 1426MB free, and that's taking into account all the resources used by the OS and programs I'm running ATM. I don't have a Windows box to compare it to.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
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NetFixer

Premium Member

said by Trihexagonal5:

I'm running FreeBSD 9.1-RELEASE-p3 with XP era hardware on my PC, and Vista era on my laptop. I post screenshots in the UNIX forum every month showing top and the resources they use, which is minimal.

I'm currently using my laptop with 2 instances of Firefox open, with 3 windows open on each for a total of 6 windows. Firefox is using 341MB RAM out of 2GB, leaving 1426MB free, and that's taking into account all the resources used by the OS and programs I'm running ATM. I don't have a Windows box to compare it to.

Not really all that different from what is happening on my 2002 vintage Windows XP workstation at this moment (except that I use SeaMonkey instead of Firefox).




FWIW, the high usage on the beginning of the chart was an HD streaming video (which this old box does well enough that I have no plans to replace either it or its OS).
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
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join:2000-01-13

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to Trihexagonal5
Resources are not the real issue here, it's the eol of support for the os, and after 13 years extended from 10 I'd say it's time for some legacy to expire again. I can't wait for IE 6 to officially die at the same time as xp support. You would find that 10 years is a long time even for lts distros.

I'm aware many distros have lower resource usage from the os, I run one nix variation myself, but I still mostly use windows due to the programs I want to run which are not created, otherwise ported from windows. Wine and virtualization are not enough for what I want to run reliably. Hell many programs are not even made available for Apple's osx, and there is no equivalent. I'm quite aware not everyone runs windows, there's many professional options, but it's up to the business or government to embrace them. For home use people can easily use one of the many distros for their needs, but some windows software just doesn't like wine or virtualization.

Businesses, and governments were given an addition three years to get their plans in order to move off xp.
OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17

OZO

Premium Member

said by BlitzenZeus:

Resources are not the real issue here, it's the eol of support for the os, and after 13 years extended from 10 I'd say it's time for some legacy to expire again.

I'd say no. If it works and works well, why I'd want to spend (actually waste) my money? Just to support m$? That's ridiculous. My suggestion - sell your MSFT stocks (as I gladly did many rears ago) and you'll see EoL from a completely different perspective, I promise ...

And BTW, I completely agree with this point:
said by PX Eliezer1:

said by BlitzenZeus:

Microsoft needs to make money to survive....

1) That ain't my problem. I'd rather my money go first to my family, and second to worthy causes like Sandy relief. And if Microsoft vanished tomorrow, the world would go on. Maybe even better as it would help other OS.

intok (banned)
join:2012-03-15

intok (banned) to NetFixer

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to NetFixer
said by NetFixer:

Not really all that different from what is happening on my 2002 vintage Windows XP workstation at this moment (except that I use SeaMonkey instead of Firefox).

FWIW, the high usage on the beginning of the chart was an HD streaming video (which this old box does well enough that I have no plans to replace either it or its OS).

The main difference is he's using all current software, not 13 year old software with a few current pieces that still work on the digital fossil.
intok

intok (banned) to BlitzenZeus

Member

to BlitzenZeus
said by BlitzenZeus:

Resources are not the real issue here, it's the eol of support for the os, and after 13 years extended from 10 I'd say it's time for some legacy to expire again. I can't wait for IE 6 to officially die at the same time as xp support. You would find that 10 years is a long time even for lts distros.

You made the implication that modern distros may be too heavy to run on a machine that shipped with XP.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Yay, more off topic, out of context reading between the lines.

Trihexagonal5
join:2004-08-29
US

1 edit

1 recommendation

Trihexagonal5

Member

I've had a FreeBSD box for about 8 years, but it wasn't till a year ago this month when I could no longer use my restoration disks to reformat my Vista box that I chose to go with BSD full time rather than buy another version of Windows. Since then, I've found I can do anything with it I used to do with Windows using programs from ports, and don't use Wine or any Windows programs.

If more people made the move from Windows perhaps more business suites would be ported over, if there isn't already an alternative.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
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join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
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NetFixer to intok

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to intok
said by intok:

The main difference is he's using all current software, not 13 year old software with a few current pieces that still work on the digital fossil.

What can I say except that us old fossils have to stick together. I am from the era when vacuum tube computers were just beginning to be developed, and I wear the fossil label with pride.

My "13 year old software" does everything I need it to do. Why should I spend hard to come by money just because somebody else decides that I need new software?

Trihexagonal5
join:2004-08-29
US

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This shows resource use on mine. Inactive mem is considered free, it holds it in reserve like that for use if need be, for a total of approximately 1400MB free out of 2GB. CPU is Intel 1.6GHz DuoCore.

GKrellM doesn't make the distinction and shows all memory not in use as free.
intok (banned)
join:2012-03-15

intok (banned) to NetFixer

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said by NetFixer:

What can I say except that us old fossils have to stick together. I am from the era when vacuum tube computers were just beginning to be developed, and I wear the fossil label with pride.

My "13 year old software" does everything I need it to do. Why should I spend hard to come by money just because somebody else decides that I need new software?

Because your 13 year old operating system is a gaping security hole. If you where running a f/oss operating system you can stay up to date and keep your old software chugging along without the security holes unless they exist in your old app.

Clinging to an ancient version of Windows and hoping that your next trip online wont require you to reformat due to security holes that are known and will never be fixed is not a solution. Or do you not remember the Vista exploit that has apparently been exploitable there since Win3.11?

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
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join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

NetFixer

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said by intok:

Because your 13 year old operating system is a gaping security hole. If you where running a f/oss operating system you can stay up to date and keep your old software chugging along without the security holes unless they exist in your old app.

Clinging to an ancient version of Windows and hoping that your next trip online wont require you to reformat due to security holes that are known and will never be fixed is not a solution. Or do you not remember the Vista exploit that has apparently been exploitable there since Win3.11?

You worry about what you want to worry about, and let me worry about what I need to worry about (and Windows XP/2003 security isn't one of those things).

FYI, I also use a relatively recent version of OpenSuSE in addition to Windows XP/2003 (I said that Windows XP/2003 was my Windows platform, not my only platform), and it is no more (or less) secure than the Windows XP/2003 systems on my network. Network security has very little to do with any specific version of any specific OS, and very much to do with configuration of the systems (and a bit of common sense). I have never...and I will repeat...never had a malware infection on any PC on my network (other than controlled deliberately induced infections for research and testing). That had absolutely nothing to do with the version or brand of OS on the PC boxes; but it did depend on the configuration and usage of the PC boxes, and the overall security on the network itself.

Any version of any OS (or any network) is as secure (or insecure) as the user and/or administrator makes it. And in that vein, my OpenSuSE server is actually more at risk due to the applications it runs (and is attacked more frequently) than any of the Windows XP/2003 boxes on my network. Although, since I moved my primary email server from the OpenSuSE box to the Windows 2003 server box (partly for load balancing purposes, but also because I just happen to like the hMailServer application) the Windows Server box is starting to play catchup on the daily attack stats.

As for the applications I use, if the applications that forced me to migrate from Windows 2000 to Windows XP ran properly under OpenSuSE (or some other *nix distro), or if I had found *nix compatible applications that did the same thing in the same way (I am an old cranky fart, and I don't like changes...if it ain't broke, don't fix it), I would have migrated to that platform for those applications (I like OpenSuSE...it is reliable, easy to setup, easy to use, and I have used it since long before Novell assimilated it and added the Open prefix). But security would have not been part of the decision making process.
intok (banned)
join:2012-03-15

intok (banned)

Member

Fun thing about a competent bit of malware is you may never know its there »it.slashdot.org/story/13 ··· omputers
Velnias
join:2004-07-06
233322

Velnias to Smokey Bear

Member

to Smokey Bear
Question is, why Linux is good for Munich municipality (Germany) and many more
»www.comparebusinessprodu ··· t-expect (old information),
but not for Japanese?

BTW, things works well not Microsoft way too...

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

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NetFixer to intok

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to intok
said by intok:

Fun thing about a competent bit of malware is you may never know its there »it.slashdot.org/story/13 ··· omputers

Fun thing about a competent network admin is some of us know not to trust an outside VPN/remote access service. Remember that "common sense" part of network security I previously mentioned?

The only time I ever used TeamViewer (because a vendor I was working with required it for a particular situation at a client's site), it was done on a standalone notebook which was sanitized afterward. The first rule of network security is "Trust No One".

Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium Member
join:2004-07-08
united state

Woody79_00

Premium Member

All this hoopla about XP/2003 not being secure after April 2014 is just a running joke.

1. XP Professional, Enable Software Restriction Policies, white list your known good apps, and nothing else will run on it...malware problem solved....malware can't install if the scripts/executable won't even run.

2. Install the AV/Security Suite of your choice (XP will be supported by vendors for quite awhile longer because the market is their for them to make money)

3 enjoy your XP/2003 system for as long as you want....if you want to be evne more secure install Windows SteadyState..works just fine for XP.

in terms of security one "could" argue that newer versions of Windows are more of a security risk...because Windows 7 Code base, for exmaple, is huge in comparison with XP...just look at the amount of hard drive space each install takes...more lines of code = greater chance a flaw exists somewhere.

There are two sides to this argument....granted Win 7/8 has better more secure default settings then XP, but XP can be made secure enough with the proper settings.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
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join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran to intok

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to intok
said by intok:

said by BlitzenZeus:

Resources are not the real issue here, it's the eol of support for the os, and after 13 years extended from 10 I'd say it's time for some legacy to expire again. I can't wait for IE 6 to officially die at the same time as xp support. You would find that 10 years is a long time even for lts distros.

You made the implication that modern distros may be too heavy to run on a machine that shipped with XP.

My eight year old Sempron ran better under XP than under the Xubuntu it currently runs.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
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join:2009-06-15
Canada

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Davesnothere to StuartMW

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to StuartMW
said by StuartMW:

Yeah well many seem to believe the day XP support ends all software on those boxes will die and the machines will burst into flames.

Support ended for Win2K a long time ago and my Win2K SP4 box continues to work. Granted it won't run a lot of newer software but that's not a security issue.

 
about the flames !

BTW, I have a Win2K notebook still up (Thinkpad T22) and I have FireFox 10 LongTermSupport (or whatever they call that) series on it, and Opera 11.something, and those work fine.

My p2p apps like it too, and if I eventually take it out of service, it will only be because some of the newer video codecs need more CPU and/or video electronics power than a T22 has, as I have also been using it for watching offline videos & live streams.

IMNSHO, MicroSloth spreads FUD about their old OS's because they want to sell new ones, and most of the PC makers are in bed with them.

Although I have not warmed up yet to these, I see the 'Tablet Revolution' as refreshing, as it may finally get SOME kind of Linux accepted and used by the mainstream public in significant numbers, following its deployment and acceptance on so many smartphones recently.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

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Kearnstd to Smokey Bear

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to Smokey Bear
XP is how old?

If your shit cannot support Windows7 by now you deserve to be SOL. If you have Intranet apps depending on IE6 that is just too damn bad.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Yeah, if you don't have a decent dual core at this point it's quite outdated for everyday use with current software, but specialized use it might have other purposes. To put it bluntly, single core is out, but some dual cores can't handle hd video w/o gpu acceleration. Win 8 will doesn't want to be installed to single core processors, and Win 7 will be the last one to allow it. People need to remember that hardware has changed considerably in a decade, and some systems with xp only had 512MiB of ram when released as gold. Now 2GiB for current applications is seen as mandatory, and new systems at least sell with 4GiB since they stopped selling Win 32-bit with 2-3GiB of ram years ago retail.

With all that said I know some distros work well with a dual core, and only 1GiB ok if they do ok for most things. Even current software on those operating systems still takes up hudreds of MiB, just like windows.