dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
3396
share rss forum feed

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX

1 edit

Electrical Question

I moved into a new Apt, quickly found out that if I plugged in my AC to the circuit, it would be pretty overloaded.
Called the landlord, asked about it, got a call back a few days later, he'd have his guys come and install a wire for my at my cost.

Fast forward wire gets installed.

My AC says it requires a 15A circuit, and has a draw of 11.5A

The cable he installed was 14/2.
It's plugged into a 15A breaker.

Should I be worried about this at all? The AC is the only thing on the circuit.

TheSMJ

join:2009-08-19
Farmington, MI
I don't see why there would be a problem as long as the AC remains the only thing on the circuit.

However, I'm not sure how I would feel about paying the LL so he could update his own wiring.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
I was a little put off by it as well, but, it wasn't much, and I needed to have AC.

There's no way I could not have it installed.

I'm also sure there's no way the job it up to code, he ran the wire on the surface all the way back to the panel.
And yes, it's dedicated it will be the only thing ever on the circuit.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
Will also say, feeling the wire with the compressor on for 15 minutes, there's a slight warmth to the wire, nothing like it was at my other place.

My other question is, does it really make a difference if there's a twist or 2 in the cable? Meaning, it's not totally flat along the wall, there's a couple of flip overs along the way, much like say your belt may flip over when you're putting it on.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Nitra
14/2 is the norm for 15A circuits... No issue there.

Being run on the surface is also not a problem if the proper materials were used - but from your description ('flat' leads me to think Romex - which requires 'mechanical protection' under code - conduit or BX would be fine exposed, if not a little ugly...) - it's not installed properly...

Picture(s)?


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to Nitra
Since the AC is requiring a 15A circuit and a 15A circuit was installed for it, you are fine. 14/2 cable is the minimum size for such a circuit and unless there are reasons for derating (not likely based on your description) will be fine as well.

Surface mounted cable is ugly but doesn't have to be a code violation. Important is that it is not installed in such a way that it is likely to get physically damaged (like running romex along the floor as an example for a definite no-no). If the cable is exposed (no conduit) it should probably have been armor clad cable.

Making a tenant pay for actual cost of improvements to an apartment that the landlord does not consider required is a common solution that satisfies the tenant by getting what he wants/needs and the landlord by getting to choose a trusted installer for the work.

The unprofessional appearance of the installation is likely to have saved you some money. Hiding a new circuit in walls, floors and ceilings can be very time consuming. This is even more the case in apartment buildings where the fire rating of walls and ceilings between units must be preserved.
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire!

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
reply to Nitra
Twists in the wiring are not an issue, assuming there aren't actual kinks where the wire may have been damaged.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
said by garys_2k:

Twists in the wiring are not an issue, assuming there aren't actual kinks where the wire may have been damaged.

Correct, I inspected them, they are not kinked, just flips in the wire, small twists etc.

The cable for the record is, Nexans 14/2 NMD90, so yes, the Romex everyone here is talking about.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to leibold
said by leibold:

Surface mounted cable is ugly but doesn't have to be a code violation. Important is that it is not installed in such a way that it is likely to get physically damaged (like running romex along the floor as an example for a definite no-no). If the cable is exposed (no conduit) it should probably have been armor clad cable.

It's run along the baseboard in the room where the AC is, gets near the doorway, then heads to the ceiling, stays there until it hits the panel.

I'm not stupid enough to put anything near or close to the wire.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Nitra
OK - Romex is not allowed to be surface mounted without protection; when it could be exposed to damage.

How's the cable routed? What height?

EDIT - You answered while I was asking... -

That's not allowed by code. I'm guessing it was a 'handyman' that ran it, rather then an electrician...

I'd suggest you talk the LL, and say that while you appreciate the circuit being installed, he needs to get his 'guy' to fix it up. Running a little conduit, or replacing the Romex with BX, would be a simple fix, that doesn't required busting up drywall/plaster.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
Yeah, totally uncool install... It's ugly, there's no firestopping at the wall penetrations, and it's lacking mechanical protection.

No way an electrician did that.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Nitra
How about a picture of the wire entering the electrical panel.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
»i.imgur.com/txNxM57.jpg

Sorry for the bad picture, hard to take a picture of the top of the panel.


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
That ain't right either. Needs a romex clamp.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Here's a better one of the top of the panel.

»i.imgur.com/PrB9x1R.jpg

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Spoke to someone local, they're sending someone out to fix this, at the very least, he's going to replace it with 12/2 BX cable, replace the outlet with a 20A, and drop in a new 20A breaker.


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
reply to Nitra
I guess there is a clamp. It just looks very different than the ones I'm used to.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
reply to Nitra
Is it an illusion but I think the entire top of the panel is rusted out and interior wiring is visible. Please tell me this isn't so.

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
It's not, it's dusty and dirty, panel is solid inside.


Zorack

join:2001-12-14
Fayetteville, WV
reply to Nitra
That last pic looks freakin' scary..


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

1 edit
reply to Nitra
said by Nitra:

It's not, it's dusty and dirty, panel is solid inside.

What are those wires I can see about midway the top back of the panel? Sure looks like the interior to me


tax tinkerer

@videotron.ca
reply to Nitra
said by Nitra:

got a call back a few days later, he'd have his guys come and install a wire for my at my cost.

Mind if I just think out loud??

I just noticed that you are in Montreal.

The only thing I would question is the landlord saying you will pay for it.

In Quebec, unit updates to anything gets the landlord a tax credit that he will apply to his income tax as having performed an update/upgrade to a unit.

If I'm not mistaken, the costs (tax credits) he claims on his income tax can be used to increase your rent, up to the limit set by the Régie du Logement, »www.rdl.gouv.qc.ca/en/accueil/accueil.asp

Your cost is negligible, but when added to multi-units, it adds up nicely (if you are in a big apartment complex and not a duplex type thing).

So I guess with you paying it, he isn't making the income tax claim? If he does this for 20 units, he is tossing out this money? Are you paying the contractor directly and you got the receipt directly from the contractor, or are you paying the landlord when he shows you the bill and then he claims this money?

In other words, is this landlord double-dipping which would be tax fraud to claim tax-credits for something he never paid for?

Anyhow, It's possible that for an item like an air conditioner he can have you cover the cost, but it's a permanent upgrade to the unit (you can't take it with you) so I'm unsure if he can legally ask you to pay for it (regardless if he is double dipping and performing tax fraud).

It's not an essential repair or maintenance thing, but it is an upgrade, but at the same time a convenience for you.

If you're comfy with it and the cost wasn't too high, just let it go. But if you question it I would call and ask the Regie. If you do call, let us know what they said. Has me curious about it.

Thanks for letting me think out loud


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
Looking at that work - there was no electrician involved; and likely no receipt at all...

A great point raised tinkerer; but I doubt it's applicable here...

Nitra

join:2011-09-15
Montreal
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX

1 edit
Few points here.

First, I had someone come out and look at it, he told me there was no point in me paying twice, although it's an ugly job, I won't have any issues with it.

Second, @ tinkerer,

When I moved in, I asked for a few things to be done, paint etc., those were done, I asked to have 2 ceiling fans installed and the various outlets that had been painted over reinstalled and new wall plates put up and a few new light switches, these had all been painted over several times.

I bought and paid for all of those items, all the outlets/wall plates/switches/ceiling fans. I also paid the landlord an extra $200 and I did get a receipt for it for "electrical repairs and maintenance"

When I found out the plug for the AC in the front room didn't work, I called him, he called his guys, they came out, and said the wire is dead somewhere in the wall, not something they can fix easy. His guy told me it will be fine to plug in the AC into the other circuit, I'm not stupid, I've got a 900 watt load on that circuit nearly all the time with computer equipment. So I called the landlord, and asked if he would have a wire run for the AC, he spoke to his guys, called me back a few days later and said it would be $200 to run it.
And on those things, like a change, it wasn't his responsibility, and if I wanted stuff like that done, it will cost me, he wouldn't pay for it.

I also checked, and he's going to give me another receipt for "electrical repairs" when I pay him this month.


tax tinkerer

@videotron.ca
said by Nitra:

I also checked, and he's going to give me another receipt for "electrical repairs" when I pay him this month.

So the landlord is giving you his own receipt for "electrical repairs and maintenance"? Then it seems obvious to me that he is double-dipping.

A defective electrical outlet in the wall should be fixed at no cost, even the temp thing they set you up with to replace the defective plug.

Extra's like a ceiling fans and wall plates that you asked for, yeah it can come out of your pocket, and yeah you can bring those with you when you move, and yeah it can be charged for, or you do it yourself.

But...
said by Nitra:

When I found out the plug for the AC in the front room didn't work, I called him, he called his guys, they came out, and said the wire is dead somewhere in the wall, not something they can fix easy. His guy told me it will be fine to plug in the AC into the other circuit, I'm not stupid, I've got a 900 watt load on that circuit nearly all the time with computer equipment. So I called the landlord, and asked if he would have a wire run for the AC, he spoke to his guys, called me back a few days later and said it would be $200 to run it.

Seems to me you have a Regie case. That is a required repair not on your dime. In all likelihood if you made a complaint, as I understood it here, you would win that $200 back. But that is up to you. If you feel fine with it and it just get's things done w/o hassles and keeps a good relation going then so be it.

But that wasn't for you to pay for. He will certainly will be claiming his jobbers expenses and materials as building upgrades and double-dipping.

Hang on to every receipt though in case things ever go sour and you want to give him a headache and get 200$ back

fallsguy

join:2013-05-07
Port Colborne, ON
Fyi, I'm not sure about Quebec electrical codes, but in Ontario even running BX it has to be 11' above floor level always. That's an unsafe install by any standards.
Esa would have a fit if you called them to inspect that.


nunya
LXI 483
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·Charter
·voip.ms
reply to Nitra
In the electrical business, we have technical term for that kind of install - fucked up.

I don't give a rats ass what country you are in. That install is not only wrong, but it is unsafe. Whoever did that (and charged $200 for it!) should be fucking ashamed of themselves. It's a turd. I've seen better looking (and safer) wire work in 3rd world countries.

Please tell me this is some sort of joke? It sounds like your landlord is a real dick.
--
If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't.


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
Reviews:
·Mediacom
·Callcentric
·Dish Network
said by nunya:

In the electrical business, we have technical term for that kind of install - fucked up.

Please tell me this is some sort of joke? It sounds like your landlord is a real dick.

THIS. Also, if there's a problem with a "dead wire" inside the wall somewhere, shouldn't they be fixing that?? Sounds like a disaster just waiting to happen.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

In the electrical business, we have technical term for that kind of install - fucked up.

I don't give a rats ass what country you are in. That install is not only wrong, but it is unsafe. Whoever did that (and charged $200 for it!) should be fucking ashamed of themselves. It's a turd. I've seen better looking (and safer) wire work in 3rd world countries.

Please tell me this is some sort of joke? It sounds like your landlord is a real dick.

Moonlighting as an inspector ive seen this time and again here in montreal. When the price of oil sky rocketed in the 80s everything from triple decker cold flats to appartment buildings were converted to electric baseboard heating... so the tennant pays to heat. Some of the worst installs around, landlords would have an upgraded panel put in and 6 months later come and have "handy andy" who knows electricity, come and run the 12/2 for the heaters. in some of the cold flats you see 12/2 stacked down the hall (panel usually in the kitchen at the rear) along the baseboards. Sadly in quebec since you "cant" do your own wireing this is done in the dark with no inspections and is sadly more the rule than the exception.