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treichhart

join:2006-12-12

[Equipment] can anybody tell me if this omni antenna dual pol?

Hey Guys
I am just wondering if anybody tell me if this antenna's is dual pol:
»hanawireless.com/products/antenn···-13d-nf/
»hanawireless.com/wp-content/uplo···D-NF.pdf


Book
Premium
join:2004-05-24
Shepherd, MI

Re: [Equipment] can anybody tell me if this omni antenna dual po

Yes



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to treichhart

Alright thanks


Book
Premium
join:2004-05-24
Shepherd, MI

If you deal with Streakwave, you can get it cheaper there. Part Number 15-713



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to treichhart

yea I deal with streakwave and I checked out that 15-713 not bad price for the 13dBi.



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to treichhart

compare the price to a UBNT dual polarity omni.



treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to treichhart

freaking ubnt is 245 dollars for MSRP and my pricing for there omni is not less then 200 dollars.


lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to treichhart

said by treichhart:

I am just wondering if anybody tell me if this antenna's is dual pol

The datasheet actually says "horizontal or vertical" polarization and only appear to show the beam pattern for vertical polarity operation. Do you actually want to run both polarity with a 2x2 MIMO AP?

I hope WHT See Profile and DaDawgs See Profile could comment on the minimum separation required for such designs to run both polarity at the same time. Random Chinese version shown in photo with a bit more (and obvious) separation.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

I figured if the antenna was connected to the same mimo radio that if the radio can't tx and rx at the same time, separation was not a concern. ?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca



54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL
reply to lutful

said by lutful:

The datasheet actually says "horizontal or vertical" polarization and only appear to show the beam pattern for vertical polarity operation.

Are you sure about that?

I have a few of these deployed and that comment doesn't mesh.

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 edit

Click for full size
said by 54067323:

said by lutful:

The datasheet actually says "horizontal or vertical" polarization and only appear to show the beam pattern for vertical polarity operation.

Are you sure about that?

Yes of course. Here is annotated extract from their datasheet. There is absolutely no way to make the beam pattern match exactly for both polarity.

I also noticed similar design "dual-pol" antennas are being sold by Ubiquiti and a few other companies and their datasheets also provide specs for just one polarity without identifying which one (H-pol or V-pol).

I urge you NOT to start a silly argument with me - please wait for responses by the two forum members I specifically asked in my original post.

They may know how such designs actually work and may even have internal photos.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to treichhart

LOL @ "random Chinese version.

Anyway, going down the list...

1) Their PDF says "vertical OR horizontal", I suspect that should have been worded "vertical AND horizontal". It says "2*N" (two each N connectors) and the picture shows two N connectors, and that is consistent with dual-polarity omni antennas.

2) For MIMO systems there is no minimum spacing beyond fabrications limitation. For non-MIMO antennas where pattern deformation can occur from phase relationships, generally you want the length of the array. For interference mitigation, take a look at this ITU paper.
www.itu.int/dms_pub/itu-r/opb/rep/R-REP-M.2244-2011-MSW-E.docx

3) For MIMO radios (where you have two transmitters that as slaved together), they will be transmitting (or receiving) at the same time.

4) Polarity and pattern are two different things.
Polarity is determined how the antenna is energized. This was asked in the UBNT forum how and antenna can be either VPOL or HPOL from the same sheet of metal - both antenna posts are DC metallically connected (DC short) but RF isolated - same principle of DC quarter-wave shunt lightning protectors.

Pattern is determined by the form factor of the stacked arrays. I vertically stacked array will have the same pattern regardless of polarity - for an omni it is 360º azimuth and typically 15 º elevation. Turning a single VPOL omni on it's side will give you HPOL, but a very 15º azimuth and it's no longer an omni.



54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

1 edit
reply to lutful

said by lutful:

I also noticed similar design "dual-pol" antennas are being sold by Ubiquiti and a few other companies and their datasheets also provide specs for just one polarity without identifying which one (H-pol or V-pol).

It may not be a perfect match (no real antenna is) but both polarities can be utilized by the M2.

I also noticed similar design "dual-pol" antennas are being sold by Ubiquiti and a few other companies and their datasheets also provide specs for just one polarity without identifying which one (H-pol or V-pol).

It should read horizontal and vertical not horizontal or vertical.

I urge you NOT to start a silly argument with me - please wait for responses by the two forum members I specifically asked in my original post.

I have some deployed and know how they work, by the way might I ask, how many of these have you installed lately?

Or are you just pulling your information from a cut sheet.

Hre's one with an M2 I have installed at my office as part of a test-bed to determine the feasibility of using un-licensed wireless as a bypass for 4G wireless video streaming.


e




Do note how the M2 is connected to the horizontal and vertical ports.

As for a “silly” argument going forward you can knock off the snarky comments when replying to me from now on.

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to WHT

said by WHT:

vertically stacked array will have the same pattern regardless of polarity - for an omni it is 360º azimuth and typically 15 º elevation.

I am talking about the actual "nitty gritty" pattern ... which are like fingerprints of a particular physical design. Anyway, please ignore the MIMO and the V-pol stuff inside for the following serious and sincere question.

*** Did anyone actually check ONLY the H-pol pattern using an H-pol client antenna. Did it match the (similarly tested) V-pol ONLY pattern EXACTLY? ***

Anyway, even if they don't match exactly but come close, they could sell this design as a stand-alone H-pol omni with just one N connector ... and obsolete the expensive and bulky H-pol omni antennas being sold to WISPs today.

I also asked for opinion of dadawg See Profile ... we both design antennas and know most variations. I am sure it is not following any classic H-pol omni design and probably not an "evolved" antenna either.

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1
reply to 54067323

said by 54067323:

I have some deployed and know how they work, by the way might I ask, how many of these have you installed lately?

I help others ... usually long before they install. One of my cousins installed several thousand H-pol omnis, sectors, panels ... but probably has not figured out how they work.

I actually designed many types of antennas since 2003 including some "evolved" designs (»[Equipment] Antenna evolution) that can duplicate almost any beam pattern. You can search my old posts for photos of our antennas.

*** getting back to this discussion, If you actually know how the H-pol side works (and how it exactly matches the V-pol side) please elaborate with sketches and text rather than your installation photos.


54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

said by lutful:

If you actually know how the H-pol side works (and how it exactly matches the V-pol side) please elaborate with sketches and text rather than your installation photos.

Who ever said it does???


54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL
reply to lutful

said by lutful:

*** getting back to this discussion, If you actually know how the H-pol side works (and how it exactly matches the V-pol side) please elaborate with sketches and text rather than your installation photos.

»dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/airmaxomn···_web.pdf

Note the polarization is described as dual-linear and the vertical and horizontal patterns are clearly illustrated.

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1
reply to 54067323

said by 54067323:

said by lutful:

If you actually know how the H-pol side works (and how it exactly matches the V-pol side) please elaborate with sketches and text rather than your installation photos.

Who ever said it does???

a) It is clearly implied by mentioning "horizontal or vertical" polarity and showing a single pattern in the datasheet.

b) WHT See Profile suggested earlier that same number of (H-pol or V-pol) elements stacked vertically will create the same pattern.

c) FYI a single circular polarization antenna could handle either H-pol or V-pol equally well ... but there will be 3dB decrease in gain for both polarity.

*** Anyway, I asked a legitimate question expecting a proper technical response. No need to argue about the question. If you know - as you claimed earlier - please share.


54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

said by lutful:

*** Anyway, I asked a legitimate question expecting a proper technical response. No need to argue about the question. If you know - as you claimed earlier - please share.

Already did.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to lutful

said by lutful:

I also noticed similar design "dual-pol" antennas are being sold by Ubiquiti and a few other companies and their datasheets also provide specs for just one polarity without identifying which one (H-pol or V-pol).

Both polarities will have the same elevation beamwidth, which is a function of the vertically stacked arrays.

said by lutful:

*** Did anyone actually check ONLY the H-pol pattern using an H-pol client antenna. Did it match the (similarly tested) V-pol ONLY pattern EXACTLY? ***

The vertically stacked elements don't care if they are feed from the side for horizontal or from the bottom for vertical polarity. The pattern would be the same...barring fabrication oddities that could slightly affect the pattern.

Lutful raised a good point of UBNT's or anyone elses' dual-polarity antenna replacing the much higher priced HPOL only antennas.

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Click for full size
said by WHT:

Both polarities will have the same elevation beamwidth, which is a function of the vertically stacked arrays.

I finally looked at the Ubiquiti datasheet and it actually shows different elevation patterns (as expected) and demonstrates all other points I was trying to make.

The almost perfect azimuth pattern of the Hannah antenna mentioned by OP probably does not reflect the actual pattern of either polarity.

Anyway all such "dual polarity" omni antennas should show simulated or tested patterns for both polarity on their datasheets. If they show just one set of patterns, at least mention which polarity and if it is simulated or real.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

[lutful]Bingo ... quite different beam pattern...]

/sarcasm on

Oh yes...they do indeed look quite different.



54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

said by WHT:

[lutful]Bingo ... quite different beam pattern...]

/sarcasm on

Oh yes...they do indeed look quite different.

They sure are, one pattern is green and the other one is blue, thats quite a difference...

What has me puzzled is I am using one of these antennas to receive a video stream from a remote van and it works and in color too, all without a red pattern.

Puzzling, very puzzling.

thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
reply to treichhart

I have used Hpol antennas in the past (and other kinds)

These new omni's (like Ubnt) work really well.

Maybe there should be a poll:

like the old ones?
like the new ones?

that's whats most important



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to treichhart

Seriously, the main node elevation patterns the HPOL and VPOL look quite similar. The minor differences could be attibuted to manufacturing or construction constrants. Certainly not different enough to yell an epiphany bingo.


lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 edit

Carefully look at the sidelobes - they are like fingerprints for antennas. Unless a design was "cloned" ... the differences are much easier to spot than those in human fingerprints.

The "bingo" was because I countered a totally unnecessary argument (that H-pol and V-pol omni patterns will be so similar that just one set can be shown) using Ubiquiti datasheet rather than some academic text.

Sadly we would still be arguing about an established FACT that any antenna designer can confirm had Ubiquiti also shown just one set of patterns. And the thread was not even about Ubiquiti dual-pol antenna.

Hopefully we can all agree that the datasheet of the Ubiquiti-alternative "dual-pol" antenna mentioned by OP eventually needs to show actual H-pol and V-pol patterns.



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

Who gives a crap about "fingerprints"? All we care about is the elevation beamwidth if the major lobe. Any discussion past that accomplishes nothing. The patterns are sufficiently similar...let it go.



54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

said by WHT:

All we care about is the elevation beamwidth if the major lobe.

And it works well, what I am doing is "technically" P2P and the original design called for a Rocket Dish at the station with a rotor but doing so required a head to head setup, which working with board ops didn’t fly, so I took a slight loss on gain and went with the dual polarity omni which so far has done the job.

None the less I beleive the OP question was is this antanna dual polarity, the answer to which is yes, it is.

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1
reply to WHT

said by WHT:

All we care about is the elevation beamwidth if the major lobe. Any discussion past that accomplishes nothing.

The technical discussion started because of your comment that "vertically stacked array will have the same pattern regardless of polarity" and I do hope it accomplished something.

However, I agree with you that most WISPs just look at the gain and beamwidths ... as advertised.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

1 edit

said by lutful:

The technical discussion started because of your comment that "vertically stacked array will have the same pattern regardless of polarity"

And I still stand correct.

/added
All of us wireless professionals only care about the major lobe. Those spurs are so far down in power level, they serve no purpose and are of no concern.