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Rastan

join:2007-04-25
Canada
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·voip.ms
reply to nanook

Re: Effort afoot in court to sue Canadians for illegal downloads

From the article:

"Logan (managing director of Canipre) wants piracy to become a taboo, much like drinking-and-driving is now."

Good luck with that. Drinking and driving is dangerous and can cause deaths. File sharing is safe and harmless. Idiot.

ctggzg
Premium
join:2005-02-11
USA
kudos:2
said by Rastan:

Good luck with that. Drinking and driving is dangerous and can cause deaths. File sharing is safe and harmless. Idiot.

I don't know why you guys get so defensive. It's almost like you actually think you're not doing anything wrong. Sad.


OhWoW

@teksavvy.com
To be fair the example they provided about drunk driving was absolutely ridiculous. Yes, it's wrong, but it's no where near as wrong.

GreenEnvy22

join:2011-08-04
St Catharines, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

1 recommendation

reply to ctggzg
said by ctggzg:

said by Rastan:

Good luck with that. Drinking and driving is dangerous and can cause deaths. File sharing is safe and harmless. Idiot.

I don't know why you guys get so defensive. It's almost like you actually think you're not doing anything wrong. Sad.

I struggle with that too. I've downloaded stuff online I shouldn't have, but i knew it was wrong. As I matured I adjusted my behaviour. I don't delude myself into thinking it's fine to do.

People try to make a living producing songs, movies, and applications/games. Why do you feel it's perfectly ok to deprive those creative people of their hard earned money.

Now I find many faults with how the industries work. They give very little money to the actual artists, they try to nickel and dime you for every little thing, and try to make you pay for the same thing several times. However that doesn't make pirating it OK.

Rastan

join:2007-04-25
Canada
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·voip.ms
reply to ctggzg
I'm not getting defensive, I'm pointing out the ridiculous comparison. I also don't think we should be lectured by someone who profits from threatening people with massive lawsuits. Isn't that wrong?

The most vocal people who are against file sharing are the ones who are the most morally bankrupt. From the recording industry executives and middlemen who take advantage of musicians, right down to the people who run or work for companies like Canipre and Prenda Law, who take advantage of people who aren't familiar with copyright law.

These people are scum so I really don't understand why anyone should feel bad about sharing copyrighted material and it's certainly not as bad as drinking and driving. Only an idiot would make such a comparison.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
reply to GreenEnvy22
This case is not about the legality of piracy, it's about a company using its position to extort money out of a supposed list of BitTorrent users who allegedly committed copyright infringement. The current copyright law is not intended for that type of legal action and they still have to somehow prove the users on the list intended to commit copyright infringement.


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
said by mlerner:

This case is not about the legality of piracy, it's about a company using its position to extort money out of a supposed list of BitTorrent users who allegedly committed copyright infringement. The current copyright law is not intended for that type of legal action and they still have to somehow prove the users on the list intended to commit copyright infringement.

This. Voltage isn't really out to rectify what little harm piracy has done do the media business, but to take advantage of the situation to blackmail 1000s.

There honestly needs to be true case of piracy with concrete evidence brought forward in Canadian courts as a test case of copyright law. But this Voltage case is not that.


fatness
subtle
Premium,ex-mod 01-13
join:2000-11-17
fishing
kudos:14
reply to GreenEnvy22

(topic move) Effort afoot in court to sue Canadians for illegal

Moderator Action
The post that was here (and all 3 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »(post #28284455 no longer exists)

GreenEnvy22

join:2011-08-04
St Catharines, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to mlerner

Re: Effort afoot in court to sue Canadians for illegal downloads

Oh I'm in full agreement the tactics used are shady/wrong, no arguing that.
But it's the attitude of some people that think they have a "right" to download whatever they want without paying for it that irks me. A lot of people claim they want to see hard proof of pirating before they accept a lawsuit, but then try to block any law that would allow said proof to be collected.

Voltage, Canipre and friends are all borderline extorting people and it should be stopped, but at the same time people legitimately making movies/music/games should have a way of fighting pirating.

It's like driving cars. I speed, but I know it's wrong and if I get caught I will pay the ticket. A lot of the downloaders come across to me as the type that will fight a speeding ticket even though they know they were indeed speeding and deserve the ticket.


canUFO

@torservers.net
"Voltage, Canipre and friends are all borderline extorting people and it should be stopped, but at the same time people legitimately making movies/music/games should have a way of fighting pirating."

If "works" have no real value no one is going to buy them no matter how clever RICO scheme is. The time is coming when those who are sucking blood from artists will need to change line of business and open barber shops or grocery stores so they still can live from reselling someone elses legitimately made goods and services.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

1 edit
reply to TypeS
said by TypeS:

There honestly needs to be true case of piracy with concrete evidence brought forward in Canadian courts as a test case of copyright law. But this Voltage case is not that.

Canada still makes arrests over those selling physical copies. I know I saw a more recent one, but for example:

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/2010/···ust.html

These types of pirates are taking dollars away from people that might actually purchase copies from legitimate sources. With technology such that it is (colour laser, printable or lightscribe dvds, etc) that some purchasers might not realize they're even purchasing an illegal copy. I also suspect that you would have to do a hell of a volume to make this worth your while (time and supplies).

I don't know, the issue is complicated. I'm using Netflix more and more. The thing I don't get is that I pay for my cable, and I have a DVD recorder hooked up to it. Recording is okay (I believe). However, if I miss setting something to record why do I suddenly become a pirate if I download an episode of something I've missed. Nobody has lost income (as I could wait for the inevitable re-run to record it), and I don't fileshare, so I'm not providing. However, I'm still technically lumped into the same category as someone who decides to cut their cable and download everything.

Sadly, there's little on cable at the moment that encourages me to continue it. I have a fair amount of purchased items (don't want to consider the dollar value there), home recorded items, and yes, some downloaded items. I could probably comfortably cut the cable and settle for Netflix and my own content.

ETA: Oh, and in the 'good old days' when there happened to be three things you wanted to watch in one time slot... that was two VCRs and watching one live. Nowadays I can't even think of any time slot with three programs I'd want to watch.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N

1 edit
Here's the article I remember that was recent:

»www.insidehalton.com/news/crime/···eit-ring

Here's a tip - if someone is selling a boxed set that is (a) not available anywhere or (b) a quarter of the cost of anywhere else, it's probably a fake set downloaded. I remember running across these sites when looking to see if someone of my old faves were available on DVD. Too good to be true, usually is. The real question is - if the quality had been better would people have turned them in?

(and obviously still going strong)

Memory Lane DVD - all 9 seasons of Coach
»memorylanedvd.com/product.php?pr···0&page=1

TV Shows on DVD - only 4 seasons released
»www.tvshowsondvd.com/releaselist···owID=158

(I tend to use them for a source, but a quick check of Amazon shows the same - only 4 seasons released)


TypeS

join:2012-12-17
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to A Lurker
said by A Lurker:

said by TypeS:

There honestly needs to be true case of piracy with concrete evidence brought forward in Canadian courts as a test case of copyright law. But this Voltage case is not that.

I don't know, the issue is complicated. I'm using Netflix more and more. The thing I don't get is that I pay for my cable, and I have a DVD recorder hooked up to it. Recording is okay (I believe). However, if I miss setting something to record why do I suddenly become a pirate if I download an episode of something I've missed. Nobody has lost income (as I could wait for the inevitable re-run to record it), and I don't fileshare, so I'm not providing. However, I'm still technically lumped into the same category as someone who decides to cut their cable and download everything.

Well for a long time it's been settled (at least here in Canada) that downloading/recording a copy of media (music or video) is not illegal since it is akin photocopying something at library, VHS recording or cassette recording radio songs in the 1990s.

You'll never get into hot water for downloading via one way methods like HTTP, FTP, DCC, etc. The method in question is torrents. Participating in the facilitation of file sharing is illegal in Canada just like it is to be selling bootleg DVDs. Most should know by now how BitTorrent works, you're downloading and uploading at the same time.

The issue that needs to be clarified is exactly how much damage is done when someone downloads a file via a torrent. Most people are what private tracker operators call "hit and runs", they finish the download and delete the torrent. Given how paltry most upload speeds are in North America, I'd find it hard to believe any one person actually even uploaded the equivalent data amount that they downloaded, let alone all the pieces one time each that make up the file. So the question is, how much damage was really done to potential revenue of a select film/music album/video game that was downloaded via a torrent by one individual?

It'd probably only amount to dollars a person. But that would be costly legally to go after everyone, not to mention most likely impossible. So companies like Canpire are around to facilitate blackmailing those they can.

There are of course hosting companies that advertise "seeding boxes", if MPAA was serious, they'd go after these folks since they will be doing much more damage than all residential downloaders combined. You don't see private trackers going down often either, one of the first places SCENE stuff shows up before hitting public trackers and other p2p networks.

If the movie, music and game industries were hurting so much from pirating, they'd go source rather (taking down public trackers and suing Joe & Jane does nothing do dent pirating).


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to GreenEnvy22
No...it's not okay what people do, however, it's also not okay the way they're trying to deal with it.

To some extent, the music industry has 'changed' and I'm pretty sure most people don't download music "illegally" anymore, or at least not as much as they used to.

The industry needs to change the way it operates. And going after potential buyers isn't the way to do it.

Also, doesn't help that they keep comparing downloading movies to things like drinking and driving and killing someone.

And there were much worse crimes, including corrupt CEO's that harm the economy.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to A Lurker
Technically speaking, recording broadcasts is illegal, and always has been. It's just never been enforced or taken to court. It was an issue back when VCR's first came out, but again, nothing much was ever done about it.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:

The industry needs to change the way it operates. And going after potential buyers isn't the way to do it.

Correct on both counts. Before there were recordings, an artist made money through live performances only. Somehow they managed to eke out a living, the better ones even a very good living.

Then wax, later vinyl, records came out. It was impractical to copy them, so their publishers could make money on every [original] copy.

Then as audio cassettes and especially CDs came out it became possible for end users to copy. Artists and publishers who adapted (e.g. iTunes et al sites) have done OK.

Those who haven't are engaged in a losing battle as we know. (Imagine if the buggy whip makers had insisted that governments mandate a buggy whip in every car in order to save their industry...)


nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:

Technically speaking, recording broadcasts is illegal, and always has been. It's just never been enforced or taken to court. It was an issue back when VCR's first came out, but again, nothing much was ever done about it.

IIRC the last iteration of copyright law did contemplate recordings for time shifting purposes. You could record a TV show as long as you deleted the copy afterwards. I don't know if that provision got passed.

In the US after the Sony lawsuit against VCRS the Supremes ruled in favour of including time shifting as part of "fair use" doctrine.

But IANAL, etc.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:

Technically speaking, recording broadcasts is illegal, and always has been. It's just never been enforced or taken to court. It was an issue back when VCR's first came out, but again, nothing much was ever done about it.

Yes, because the manufacturers had deep pockets and were willing to fight any challenge. Since really, these were machines developed to pirate television. Yes, I know that full-format camcorders were manufactured as well, but the home VCRs were really only meant to record TV so you could watch it later. If they were serious about recording television being illegal then they should have gone after, say, Sony. Yeah right.

(Funny, but did Apple ever get sued as iTunes prompts you to insert your CDs so it can rip them?)

I thought Canada actually had a blank tape levy, but it seems that it is only on cassette tapes and CDs etc. Probably more to do with the time it was formed. Interesting though as it covered CD-RW formats which were more likely used for back-ups and data storage.

I don't know, the old distribution methods don't really work. I want a legal way that I can watch what I want, when I want, for a reasonable fee. On that note just watched seasons 1-3 of Arrested Development recently and see that Netflix will be releasing season 4 in less than 2 weeks.


A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to TypeS
said by TypeS:

You'll never get into hot water for downloading via one way methods like HTTP, FTP, DCC, etc. The method in question is torrents. Participating in the facilitation of file sharing is illegal in Canada just like it is to be selling bootleg DVDs. Most should know by now how BitTorrent works, you're downloading and uploading at the same time.

The big problem is identifying people. We've gone through this before, but these people have identified people in the past who definitely did not fileshare. Really stupid things, like printers even. I don't use torrents, but in the past was identified as sharing a file I'd never watched. We're talking years ago and someone from Cogeco confirmed that their notices went out by MAC addresses (may have changed since then) and the IP in the notice wasn't even in my city.

I'm too lazy to look, but I seem to remember Teksavvy couldn't even identify a great number of the IP addresses, and had to correct some that it had mis-identified. They were diligent, what about other ISPs who decide 'close enough' and shoot off your personal information.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to nanook
I'm not sure if they ever really passed any law allowing recording, even with these PVR's. The industry simply turns a blind eye since it's still money in the bank for them.

Something like Netflix needs to be expanded and improved upon. I think people would pay the money if they could get the shows they want when they want it. The cable industry will need to concentrate on delivering live content and internet. Times have changed. But $4.99 rentals from Apple and $6.99 rentals from Rogers isn't going to cut it for most people, especially when much of the content is questionable.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:28
Hey gang, seems like a decent place to post this...

Received official word today of the hearing date on June 25th. I'll be there for sure. We posted the doc earlier today; »www.teksavvy.com/en/why-teksavvy···ormation
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to A Lurker
As I said, Netflix is a great idea, along with Hulu Plus. It just needs to improve to wean people off of so-called "illegal" downloads. (it's the uploading part that is actually illegal)

You do have to wonder about things like VCR, which were always legally allowed for sale, along with blank tapes, who's sole purpose was to record content illegally. You're right, ditto with both iTunes and Windows Media Player asking if you want to rip any CD you put into it. Governments allowed it because these old folks in politics are really out-of-touch with how technology works. As are these judges. Do they understand "upload" and "download" and megabits and sharing ratio's and stuff like that!
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

abcjak

join:2012-12-18
reply to J E F F
said by J E F F:

Something like Netflix needs to be expanded and improved upon. I think people would pay the money if they could get the shows they want when they want it.

ut $4.99 rentals from Apple and $6.99 rentals from Rogers isn't going to cut it for most people, especially when much of the content is questionable.

that's the reason i stopped watching tv. I don't turn on my tv unless someone else is here. I haven't watched tv shows on their aired schedule in 20 yrs. for the longest time, i relied on my vcr's fancy programming to get what i needed. For the last 10 yrs, i've bought a lot of full seasons of shows and movies. I have absolutely no use for rogers scheduled programming. And what i've grown to hate are commercials which i'm reminded of when i'm watching tv at a friend's or a restaurant or bar. I was at my sister's place over xmas about 3 years ago and we were all watching a movie. By the end of it, they were showing 3 minutes of commericals for every 5 minutes of movie. It was ridiculous.

Now i have Netflix and Amazon Instant Video. The great thing about having both is there is very little overlap in content. I haven't had a cable/dish tv service in over a decade and I don't see myself ever going back. ...there isn't much i absolutely need a live feed for so the on-demand services work well.

Baraka

join:2012-12-11
Toronto, ON
reply to GreenEnvy22
But that's the whole problem, isn't it? When one gets a speeding ticket that's reasonably priced, they'll almost certainly pay it. Unfortunately, here in Ontario one gets dinged for not only the value of the ticket- which can be in the hundreds of dollars- but also for not carrying their insurance card, perhaps another charge depending on the law enforcement officer's experiences that day, not to mention the actual massive, multi-year increase in premiums levied by one's insurer. So, the total cost can be, when all is said and done, in the thousands of dollars until it's "off the books", so to speak.

IF THE COST WAS REASONABLE, PEOPLE WOULD PAY IT. OTHERWISE, THEY ***ABSOLUTELY*** SHOULD FIGHT THE CHARGE IN COURT. That's just pure, common sense.

The exact, same rules apply to this total perversion of justice. If people were simply dinged with per copy charges of violations, using a streamlined system of identify and pay, this problem would be solved overnight. By that, I mean you pirate it, you buy a copy of it. Very, very simple and not excessive at all. Small charges can add up over time and they discourage this type of behaviour. The rights holder gets paid. Everybody wins. Well, not *everybody*.

Of course, such a system would completely destroy the profit motive behind these lawsuits. And cut out the parasitic law firms and thug-like companies such as Canipre that make them all possible. We can't have that, now can we?

said by GreenEnvy22:

It's like driving cars. I speed, but I know it's wrong and if I get caught I will pay the ticket. A lot of the downloaders come across to me as the type that will fight a speeding ticket even though they know they were indeed speeding and deserve the ticket.



DarkStar33

join:2008-03-27
Toronto, ON
reply to OhWoW
said by OhWoW :

To be fair the example they provided about drunk driving was absolutely ridiculous. Yes, it's wrong, but it's no where near as wrong.

Yet people continue to do it without fail and people continue to kill themselves (and others) on public roads.

Drinking and driving is still a pretty serious problem, considering this weekend is a long weekend more of those people will be found.
--
TekSavvy Extreme Cable Pro (Toronto, ON)
»www.speedtest.net/result/1343900371.png


Pir8pete

join:2003-09-05
Ottawa, ON
reply to TSI Marc
What court house and room will this be held in? and what time?