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Rude or not?

On a 2 meter repeater earlier today, I hear a new ham in a QSO with two others while she is trying to figure out her radio (Baofeng UV-5R). The two other hams are giving tidbits of info that didn't sound terribly helpful, sounding like they were looking at pictures of the HT online and making guesses.

It just so happens that I've programmed 5-8 of these HTs and taught new ham friends how to use it... so it goes like this:

Ham 1 (Male): blah blah blah blah "your probably press the VFO button to..." blah blah blah blah (Note this is after about 3-4 minutes of them making guesses)

(Repeater courtesy tone)

Me: "Comment"

Ham 2 (New female ham): Okay so what can I do here, I don't really get what they re saying in the instruction manual...

(I figure that I will wait a few rounds for them to acknowledge my comment... if they even heard it)

Ham 3: (Other male) Yeah I don't know anything about those HTs other than that they're "dual mode" (talking about a dual bander)

Ham 1: (1st male): Blah blah blah blah, there is probably a dial in there to do something... blah blah blah.

(Still no acknowledgement of my comment)

Ham 2: (female new ham) - Asks a valid question.

Me: Comment

Ham 1: (Blah-ing on male ham) YEAH I HEARD YOU COMMENT! JUST WAIT A FEW MINUTES OKAY!?!?!?!?!?!

Me: (Silence and in shock - didn't key up)

Ham 1: THAT'S BETTER. Okay so blah blah blah blah I don't know where you need to look to get that information blah blah blah blah.

(I waited patiently for about 5 minutes in the parking lot at work and they never let me back on)

I had very good information on where to find a better instruction manual, and what software to use for programming, and enough memory to walk her through the questions she was asking these guys. Instead I just shut off my radio and walked into the office.

I've been a ham for over 20 years, though I've only been active for maybe 2 of those 20... back in 1993 that wouldn't fly on a local repeater... does it today? Was I being unreasonable expecting that I could offer something to the conversation? Or was this guy just so excited to speak to a woman on the radio that the "alpha male" aggression kicked in?


drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
Rude.

The two repeaters I hang out on ALWAYS acknowledge "comments" or "info" breaks almost immediately.

To ignore you, and then tell you to back off, is extremely rude.
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.


DrStrange
Technically feasible
Premium
join:2001-07-23
West Hartford, CT
kudos:1
reply to Vdubtwometer
Rude, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I own a UV-5R, so I would probably have been in your shoes if I came across such a QSO. I think the only thing I would have done differently is throw in "AB1NH with info" instead of 'comment', but I don't know if that would have made a difference.

What happened to you was rude, plain and simple. Maybe #1 wasn't capable of comprehending that someone else might have the answer he and his buddy lacked. Maybe you have something there with the 'alpha male' thing. It still doesn't excuse the rudeness you were subjected to. At any rate, it's contrary to everything I've ever read [or practiced] regarding considerate operating practices. It certainly doesn't fly with me.

I would probably have had the same reaction as you did [*jaw drops to floor of car* "Oh... kayyy...?!" said quietly off-air; patiently lurk for a few minutes before giving up; might have taken note of her call in case I hear her again when the two ratchet jaws aren't on], because starting an on-air fracas over somebody else's rude behavior is ruder still.

I've heard a few conversations at club meetings about situations like this: "So, what's the story with KZ1ZZZ? I was trying to help someone out who was talking to him and KZ1ZZY about programming a new HT and they sounded like they could use the help. Instead, he jumped all over me! Has he got anger management issues or is he just plain antisocial?" It doesn't do his reputation any good if a lot of stories like this start to circulate.

Hopefully the new op doesn't get discouraged and throw the radio in the closet. IMHO the UV-5R isn't a good first radio unless you have someone to program it for you or 'elmer' you through it.


Robotics
See You On The Dark Side
Premium
join:2003-10-23
Louisa, VA
reply to Vdubtwometer
I also have to agree...Rude


Johnny
Fed Up. Bye.
Premium
join:2001-06-27
Atlanta, GA
kudos:2
reply to Vdubtwometer
She had 3 strikes against her - new ham, female, and with a BaoFeng.

I also have one of those HTs. I have heard snotty guys equate them to manure, etc. But they are actually very good radios. I'd buy it for 3x the price (which is now $42.) I'd buy it over the Yaesu which I found even harder to program. It can be programmed with CHIRP on a Mac using radioreference or RepeaterBook, which beats the heck out of the costly cable and software for my D-710 which is PC-only, copy-protected, and only uses the crappy rfinder database.

That said, these Goobers need to learn some manners. This is not CB. They'll find themselves with nobody to talk to except each other. And maybe some FCC reports as well.


drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

She had 3 strikes against her - new ham, female, and with a BaoFeng.

On that repeater!

She would have been welcome on several of the repeaters I frequent here in SoCal.

But I agree, those guys need a good smack with a clue-by-four.
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.

n_w95482
Premium
join:2005-08-03
Ukiah, CA
reply to Vdubtwometer
said by Vdubtwometer :

Or was this guy just so excited to speak to a woman on the radio that the "alpha male" aggression kicked in?

I'd say probably that. I wouldn't have let it go myself, but oh well.
--
KI6RIT


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to Vdubtwometer
I say rude as well. It's this kind of crap that turned me off to Ham Radio. I simply got tired of the know it all types , the cheap asses, and poor mouthing. I finally gave up on ham radio.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
Unfortunately there's a lot of hams that fit the stereotype of the rude, loudmouth, unclean, know-it-all jerk out there.
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

1 recommendation

They are usually the same ones that will tell you what kind of crap you are for not learning code in one breath and the the next one they complain that the hobby is dying.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
One of the guys at the station my club operates (It's in a public museum) got in trouble for exactly that.

He was belittling new hams for not having had to pass the code test, and was getting rather belligerent about it.

The radio club board of directors told him to knock it off, or he'd lose his station privileges.
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.


OldCableGuy

@planetcr.net
reply to Vdubtwometer
Frankly I would have just broken in with the info they needed, not waited for acknowledgement, ended with "just thought you'd like to know, 73s DE MY0CALL". Unless it was a directed net, then there is nothing saying you can't join in to the QSO. You do not need their permission. Although HAMs often times take this the wrong way.

If you think that was as bad as it gets, you probably shouldn't get on HF, those guys can be MUCH ruder.

moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
reply to Vdubtwometer
Yeah, rude but that happens in almost every hobby there is.


Hank
Searching for a new Frontier
Premium
join:2002-05-21
Burlington, WV
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
said by moonpuppy:

Yeah, rude but that happens in almost every hobby there is.

You're correct moonpuppy. It happens in all hobbies.

PL239

join:2013-06-17
Aliquippa, PA
reply to Vdubtwometer
Well - there was only two mistakes made in my opinion.

First was that SHE bought a walkie talkie as a first radio.

A walkie talkie should be the last radio you should buy, not the first.

It is only good for a couple of things.
1. It allows you to squawk on the one local repeater it can hit.
2. It is cheap
3. If it is a large enough radio - and if you get a flat tire, you can stick it under the tire - use it as a wheel chock.
4. If it is flat, you can use it in place of a stone if you want to have a stone skipping contest at a lake somewhere.
5. If you are doing a public service event or at a hamfest - it is a good way to keep in contact with your crew.

But the Beofeng's and Whooshuns aren't even LEGAL amateur radios.
There is a little part in the Part 97 that says that in order for it to be type acceptable, it has to have all other radio services blocked from the transmit portion of the radio.
It will transmit in the LMRS and the GMRS and the FRS with more power then it allowed without a license.. 1 watt on a bubble pack radio that cannot work split and one half of one watt on the FRS is all that is allowed in the Part 95..

So by nature - who ever imported them into this country first, and who ever at the ARRL that took the bribe to say that they were legal - were both in the wrong.

Your second mistake is that you were listening to the repeater and expecting some type of intelligence.

A repeater is a place where a new ham first visits when they first get their license - since a Technician Licensee usually doesn't run out and buy a good HF radio when all they can operate on HF is a small portion of 10 meters phone and CW / Digital elsewhere.

And it is the last place a old ham goes before he dies, when his family puts him in a rest home and he has to get rid of all of his radios and antenna's.

A linked repeater system is a lot like a telephone. No Better!
It allows someone with no investment in equipment or experience to get on the air and play HF type radio without having to know anything, buy anything or do anything....

The club that gave the woman the VE test session should have been scolded for suggesting that she get a walkie talkie as a first radio.

A walkie talkie doesn't teach anything about radio theory, antenna's, feed lines, or power supplies..
All it does is allow someone to squawk on the radio a couple of time and play ham radio.

Most people will throw it in a drawer or on a shelf and when they need it the batteries are usually dead and they have to throw it away and buy a new one.

Most new hams do not know how to program their own radios.
That job is usually left to the one or two club members that knows how to do it.
Every time the power goes out and it looses its memory - the telephone rings and two or three people wants their radios reprogrammed. God help them if they had to learn how to do it themselves...


DrStrange
Technically feasible
Premium
join:2001-07-23
West Hartford, CT
kudos:1
said by PL239:

But the Beofeng's and Whooshuns aren't even LEGAL amateur radios.
There is a little part in the Part 97 that says that in order for it to be type acceptable, it has to have all other radio services blocked from the transmit portion of the radio.
It will transmit in the LMRS and the GMRS and the FRS with more power then it allowed without a license.. 1 watt on a bubble pack radio that cannot work split and one half of one watt on the FRS is all that is allowed in the Part 95..



Part 90 accepted Wouxuns and Baofeng HTs are legal for amateur use in the USA. Part 97 doesn't require type acceptance of transceivers. It just sets technical standards for operation of transceivers on amateur frequencies. Part 90 certified equipment generally meets the technical standards specified in Part 97.

Part 90 HTs can transmit on amateur, FRS/GMRS, business and public safety frequencies. However, it's only legal for amateur radio operators to transmit with them on amateur frequencies. It's only legal for other users to transmit with them on the frequencies where they're licensed to transmit.

With regard to FRS/GMRS: Since FRS/GMRS is governed by Part 95, Part 90 HTs can't legally be used on FRS/GMRS. I wouldn't be surprised if there were something in Part 95 which specified that FRS/GMRS equipment not be capable of transmitting on any other frequencies, but Part 95 is not Part 97.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to PL239
Are you still confused as to why this hobby is dying?


OldCableGuy

@communications.net
Nope I think he cleared it up. Reminded me of why I quit going to club meetings.

PL239

join:2013-06-17
Aliquippa, PA

1 edit
reply to DrStrange
A LEGAL PART 90 Radio - manufactured after Jan 1, 2013 - is not allowed to have the capability to be wide band.

If the Wooshun and Beofeng can operate narrow and wide - it is not legal for the Part 90 LMRS.

Hence if it is not legal for part 90 LMRS/

And it is not legal for use in Part 95 - GMRS / FRS - (since it produces more then 1 watt and can operate wide band, has a detachable antenna etc..),

Technicially it is not legal for Amateur radio - Part 97 (either) - because as amateurs - we are not allowed to free band - operate ( licensed or unlicensed) on other licensed radio services, with the same radio.

There is all kinds of legal ramifications.

We can listen anywhere - but we cannot transmit.
As soon as you transmit - you are breaking the law,,
There is nothing there to block those frequencies from transmit in those radios.

The FCC is very specific in how they wrote the law.

Technically Amateur radio is not forced to narrow band at this time. But the FCC says - that we use 70 cm on a secondary basis and that all wireless transmissions between 150 - 174 Mhz and 421 - 512 MHz must be narrow band transmissions only.

So technically all radio repeaters ( other then amateur radio repeaters) that operates between 420 - 470 MHz that was not narrow banded and all radios that operates wide band in that part of the spectrum is illegal.

It is illegal to operate amateur radio above line A in the Canadian Northern Border Zone. Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo...

These rules were written after 1958 when amateur radio was asked to vacate 11 meters so 11 meters could be given to the Citizens Band.

This is the reason why 11 meters ( transmit) must be blocked in all amateur radio transmitters manufactured after 1958 and why all amateur radio amplifiers made after 1958 must not be capable of operating on 11 meters, or be easily modifiable to operate on 10 or 11 meters.

If a transmitter designed for amateur radio use for 10 meters is easily modifiable to operate on 11 meters - clip a wire, remove a blocking diode etc, then it is not legal for the amateur radio service.
Especially if the microprocessor is capable of channels instead of frequency read out only.
It makes it look really shady when you manufacture a Ranger or a Galaxy or a Connex for 10 meters - that doesn't hardly even operate in the phone portion of 10 meters.

Because these rules were established a long time ago, there was no way for the government to for see the future to the point of where they would be able to for see a day when a amateur radio transceiver could operate everywhere between 130 - 170 Mhz and 420 - 470 MHz - since everything back then was crystal controlled.

But the Part 97 has been amended many times since 1958 and it is very clear in what is acceptable and what is not.

It's all in how you decide to interpret it and how the ARRL wants to handle it.

The bottom line is - it is just like CB radio.

When only a few people had radios and only a few people had licenses, it was very easy to regulate.

When the license went away and you could buy a radio in a grocery store for $39 - when the average crystal controlled 23 channel cb radio was atleast $250.00 / it did not take very long before everyone owned a cb radio and there was no longer any way to regulate it.

The crystals kept everyone in one place, and the power restrictions and rules kept them all in line.

Unless you could afford a tube type ham radio transmitter manufactured before 1958 or unless you could find someone to modify a transmitter made after 1958 - there was no way to break the law - other then buying more crystals and expansion boards.

This is the reason why HRO and AES asks you for your call sign when they sell you a new radio. They want to make sure that you are a HAM!

When the Yaesu FT 101 came along, the other tube type radios that only did 5 watts AM / 12 watts PEP SSB - (when the tubes were new) - became obsolete, because the Yaesu did 25 watts AM / 100 watts SSB, and had enough drive to operate a amplifier.

When people were afraid that they might get caught free banding, that was when many of them decided to become hams - since they already had the radio equipment to do so.

This is the reason why so many hams were licensed between 1980 and 1985... It was also the reason why many hams licensed before 1960 left their license lasp.

They didn't want to put up with the CB'rs on their frequencies!
They didn't want them in their clubs!
And they didn't want to listen to their incessant chatter / there was no intelligence - because the people we left into the amateur radio service was no technicially orientated, but truck drivers and average people - with no radio / electronics background....


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to OldCableGuy
Me too. It was that and how the same people would spend over half the meeting bickering over club business
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
If the club is spending half the meeting arguing over club business, then the club needs new officers!

Unfortunately, people rarely want to serve the club as an officer. In most of the clubs I've been in (not all), the membership just wants to be entertained. Presentations are one thing, and good to have, but a steady diet of them leads to "Hardening of the Arteries" of a club. We try and have a balance of presentations, demonstrations, and "get outside and DO something" activities like antenna building parties, fox hunts, and classes. I've taught classes in soldering, how to install coaxial connectors, how to use your antenna analyzer, and other 'hands-on' topics.

We could probably generate a 10-page thread on how to, and how not to, run a radio club!
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.

thals1992

join:2012-08-07
Morrow, OH

1 edit
reply to PL239

My 1st year experience

said by PL239:

Well - there was only two mistakes made in my opinion.

First was that SHE bought a walkie talkie as a first radio. A walkie talkie should be the last radio you should buy, not the first.

Your second mistake is that you were listening to the repeater and expecting some type of intelligence.

A repeater is a place where a new ham first visits when they first get their license

A linked repeater system is a lot like a telephone. No Better!
It allows someone with no investment in equipment or experience to get on the air and play HF type radio without having to know anything, buy anything or do anything....

A walkie talkie doesn't teach anything about radio theory, antenna's, feed lines, or power supplies..
All it does is allow someone to squawk on the radio a couple of time and play ham radio.

Most people will throw it in a drawer or on a shelf and when they need it the batteries are usually dead and they have to throw it away and buy a new one.

Most new hams do not know how to program their own radios.
That job is usually left to the one or two club members that knows how to do it.

Every time the power goes out and it looses its memory - the telephone rings and two or three people wants their radios reprogrammed. God help them if they had to learn how to do it themselves...

I'd like to just mention, some people get in to the hobby and expect it to work JUST LIKE CB. I'm surprised my rig didn't explode my first day I keyed up my Kenwood TM-V7A. I learned its a hardy radio, that's for sure. For the first three months of being an operator, I operated max power connected to a Craco CB antenna. It worked for using repeaters, as there is almost 30 of them in Dayton; sure it was only 50 watts, but I could sure tell how hot my room was getting from the radio and the power supply. I've never tested the swr on that pair. It took me getting to Hamvention 2012 to purchase some mag-mount antenna (I really don't remember what it was, its in the trunk as the cabling needs replaced.) I had used that and the whole experience was great besides trying to find whether the repeater's offset was + or -

My second device is a wouxun. Sure its cheap, but that's what it was for. My mobile isn't exactly as mobile as I wanted it to be, and I ended up using the handheld more often anyways (except for data, I'm just starting to dabble in that now). Most people who owned one of these kept complaining about how poorly they worked without realizing that they could purchase a different antenna. All mine needed was a sma female to female. It wasn't difficult. I just don't understand the lack of intelligence. When various members didn't understand how to program them, they usually just gave them to other new hams.

When I started to go to various clubs, I began to see the snooty, I know everything side of things. Not to mention a certain ham that acts like god running various friends of mine off of the amateur bands possibly forever. Not to mention, the same certain ham now apparently runs a religious net in our region on most of the usable repeaters. And most of the things the various clubs were only out for hams to help with contesting. Even after that, no one wanted to actively help me unless it was to their benefit (with very few exceptions.)

I know that my local repeater club is very nice to its members (its meetings have at most 20 people there, with most months just having the 10 usual's and their weekly nets having ~15 checkins) and they are mostly in their 30s. They aren't interested in contesting, but will run one if a member asks. The club actually is an ex ARES club that ditched the association with them and are now operating as part of the county EMA. The county EMA actually paid for all their repeaters and actively maintains them which is appreciated. They had maintained their webserver before moving to google sites (for easier manageability.) This club is actually tech friendly (unlike others) and are building raspberry-pi radios and building a flooding sensor with APRS. Heck last the meeting was all about data like packet, D* (which no one at that meeting owned a compatible radio, not even the presenter who maintained one for our region), CW, and an amateur 2.4 GHz ad-hoc network in my area that uses the old wrt54g's and various things like that.

PL239

join:2013-06-17
Aliquippa, PA
According to my calculations - your Kraco CB radio antenna - 11 meters, used on 2 meters would generate a VSWR of about 10:1

More then likely it was a base loaded / mag mount model and you did not have a sufficient ground plane and the reflections from using it in the room ( inside of a house or on a pie plate on the porch, window seal etc) was probably enough to take the finals out of your radio.

Anything above 2:1 - the radio would fold back the transmit power, so you were probably only radiating 5 watts or less, the rest was wasted as heat into the coax and finals and heat sink.

Wouldn't you say this was a good enough reason to warrant you finding yourself an Elmer and learning how to operate properly?

You must have been pretty desperate to talk to do something dumb like that!

For you - the Wouxon would have been the logical choice,
It doesn't take any intelligence to use a walkie talkie.

PL239

join:2013-06-17
Aliquippa, PA
reply to drjim

Re: Rude or not?

I'm not quite sure where your club is located, but where I live, the club members did not want any programs at all - because it cut into their BS time with their good buddies.
Once they got their license, that was all that they cared about.
They didn't want to learn anything, they didn't want to do anything except sell doughnuts to themselves and drink coffee - which I hate coffee.
When I guy did come one night and tried to put on a demonstration on how to apply for a vanity call sign - his projector didn't work and no one invited him to come back and put on his demonstration - because no one cared. Their call sign to them was like their name.
It was given to them when they got their license and they were not going to pay to get another one when they already have one they can use for free..!

The other club I belonged to - they all had vanity call signs.
Their call signs - since they were all Technicians and Generals - was their initials - because they were afraid that they might forget their call signs. That tells you how often they use them!

The Breezeshooters amateur radio club - the only time you hear 99% of them on the radio is on their way to the club meeting once a month.. They want to make sure to get on the air and check in with their good buddies and show them that their walkie talkies still works and that is what makes them a ham.

Anytime you see a guy show up at a ham radio meeting with a walkie talkie in their hand and they are not maintaining the talk in frequency - they are not real hams,. Just wanna bee's...


drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
My club tends to be older, and much more tech-oriented than some of the other clubs I've gone to.

A lot of the members just want to come to the meeting and be entertained.

Getting them to actually do something is hard.
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.

thals1992

join:2012-08-07
Morrow, OH

1 edit
reply to PL239

Re: My 1st year experience

Yeah, I kinda was desperate at the time and wouxuns are simple to use, only if you can understand the bad engrish directions/use a programming cable. Being a college kid at the time, I had no access to money nor spare copper. My first QSO was actually over Echolink on my Laptop (which gets hotter than my radio - the cpu temperature according to CoreTemp was usually running ~170-190F)

I eventually did get down and start learning the essentials after someone mentioned that the length of the antenna wasn't quite the length of one of the harmonics on 2m. I'm looking forward to my General exam, but I will not be able to purchase a HF rig due to their cost these days.

I thankfully have been able to borrow an swr meter from a local ham, I saw mostly (if I recall correctly) 1:1.25 on 2m and 70cm with the given Jetstream JTM2P (magmount) on the roof of my car and a JT7505B.


anon1

@optonline.net
reply to Vdubtwometer

Re: Rude or not?

that was rude, but she at least didn't get the "this is a closed repeater, you can't talk here" comment.