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old_tech
Premium Member
join:2013-03-31
Springfield, IL

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old_tech to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya

Re: Underway with basement data rack

said by nunya:

You are wrong. There are rules and I've already posted them once in this thread.
Just because you don't follow them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Wrong. Again, there are no rules stating that a network rack has to be grounded in a residential setting.

The citations you posted apply to commercial installations. Find me one or any of the hundreds of residential installs that are grounded or bonded to earth ground, also I want pictures with that.

I can tell you that from the hundreds that I have done in residential settings, not one has been grounded, or been tagged as incorrectly installed, due to they fall under a different category, which is "Low Voltage" installations, which the rules are very lax in a lot of states, when it comes to network & a/v wiring.

If the OP wants to ground the cabinet, they are free to do it, but I am stating, that there is no requirement in a residential setting, nor is there any requirement to install smoke detectors or a fire extinguisher or suppression system, which again is not a requirement in pretty much all states, when putting in a catv/video/network rack.

If this was a NOC or data center in an office, or data center in a factory, yes they would be required to follow the rules in the NEC in U.S., Canadian codes if in Canada, California codes if in California, to have suppression systems, grounding and bonding of the racks to the proper grounding systems.

The only thing that the OP is required to do, since that install is in an unfinished space, is a grounded GFCI protected outlet, and that is it. As for the bonding bar for who knows what, and the fact that they are so scared of the perceived high amount of EMI floating around their home, without taking any real measurements, tells me that they are not really knowing how to do this properly, and also should not be taking this on, because I am going to say that they will not only end up creating a ground loop if they start running ground wires to the rack and the blocks to interconnect all that coax to, but also the fact that if they do not know how to run the ground properly, if they do decide to ground that low voltage rack, containing the coax & ethernet connections, it will end up being ineffective anyways.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

There is no differentiation in 645 regarding commercial or residential, other than saying they are typically found in commercial situations.
If you really want to get down to it, 250.4 (amongst many other citations in 250) pretty much say that any metallic equipment, regardless of voltage, is getting bonded or grounded.
So if you want to get down to brass tacks, it's accepted industry practice (and has been for the decades I've worked in the industry) that racks are bonded / grounded - regardless of locale. This is irrespective of your interpretation of the code.
So just because you've been doing it wrong, it doesn't mean everybody does.
Lax enforcement does not render a practice acceptable.

I see people driving 85 miles an hour down the interstate every day. They can do that, because there is no authority around to enforce the speed limit. It still doesn't make it right.

I agree that the fire extinguisher, smoke alarm, and EMI worries are a bit excessive, to say the least.
Body Count
join:2010-09-11
Columbus, OH
Netgear CM1000
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ER-4
Ubiquiti U6-Pro

Body Count

Member

said by nunya:

I agree that the fire extinguisher, smoke alarm, and EMI worries are a bit excessive, to say the least.

Well EMI is. I'm just paranoid and once it's all finished and I see everything working like it should my paranoid nature will vanish.

But I have a fire extinguisher on every floor of my house with one in my kitchen and one in my garage as well. Cheap protection to save my house in a fire. And per my wife's rules, I have a smoke alarm at my bedroom hallway, one in my son's room, and one by the kitchen.

You can't replace a life.

old_tech
Premium Member
join:2013-03-31
Springfield, IL

old_tech to nunya

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to nunya
Nunya, no I have not been doing it wrong. That is your interpretation. Again, in a residential install, the only requirement is that if the equipment is located in a unfinished space (ie garage or basement, or even poured floor crawl space), you are required by the NEC to have a GFCI protected outlet and that is it.

There is no requirement for residential installs to bond the chassis of the network rack or cabinet to a earth ground. Only time you would ground them, is if there is a outlet that is a part of the construction of the cabinet or rack, then it would be grounded as part of the electrical connection for that outlet.

There is a huge difference between resi installs and commercial, and with that, there is a really lax area in the treatment of low voltage installs, and how they are handled when placed into a rack or cabinet system for distribution.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned)

Member

said by old_tech:

Nunya, no I have not been doing it wrong. That is your interpretation. Again, in a residential install, the only requirement is that if the equipment is located in a unfinished space (ie garage or basement, or even poured floor crawl space), you are required by the NEC to have a GFCI protected outlet and that is it.

Since you are obviously an expert at this, would you be so kind to point out the exemption to grounding residential racks in the NEC?

old_tech
Premium Member
join:2013-03-31
Springfield, IL

old_tech

Premium Member

said by 54067323:

said by old_tech:

Nunya, no I have not been doing it wrong. That is your interpretation. Again, in a residential install, the only requirement is that if the equipment is located in a unfinished space (ie garage or basement, or even poured floor crawl space), you are required by the NEC to have a GFCI protected outlet and that is it.

Since you are obviously an expert at this, would you be so kind to point out the exemption to grounding residential racks in the NEC?

The exemption is not that you do not have to ground racks, it is just not required in low voltage situations, unless there is a built in box for a outlet or power source junction box. Then there would be a screw to attach a ground wire inside that box.

Otherwise, in residential settings, there is no requirement to attach a ground jumper from the rack or cage, to the building/structure ground. What happens if you do, especially in a/v or coaxial distribution, is that you end up creating a ground loop, because those that do connect the rack or cage with coax distribution, or audio/video, can cause a "ground loop", if they do not understand how to properly connect the whole system to work together, with the grounding system of the structure.

The only rule that the homeowner in this situation needs to follow, which I have pointed out, because it is in an unfinished space, is that they need either a gfci breaker or gfci outlet, feeding the power source that the equipment in that rack will connect to, along with any other items (ie UPS, light, etc.).
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to old_tech

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to old_tech
said by old_tech:

Wrong. Again, there are no rules stating that a network rack has to be grounded in a residential setting.
...........................
If this was a NOC or data center in an office, or data center in a factory, yes they would be required to follow the rules in the NEC in U.S., Canadian codes if in Canada, California codes if in California, to have suppression systems, grounding and bonding of the racks to the proper grounding systems.
............................
The only thing that the OP is required to do, since that install is in an unfinished space, is a grounded GFCI protected outlet, and that is it.

(B) Adequacy This Code contains provisions that are considered
necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

I presume you are the code minimum guy who also backstabs 14g.

old_tech
Premium Member
join:2013-03-31
Springfield, IL

old_tech

Premium Member

Wrong. You assume like others about stuff way too much. Backstabbing is fine, as long as you know what you are doing, when you do it. I prefer to just use the screws, or the commercial outlets that have the clamps to hold the wires down.
old_tech

old_tech to patcat88

Premium Member

to patcat88
You assume like others. There is no problem with backstabbing, as long as you know what your are doing. I prefer to use the commercial outlets, that have the screw down clamps on them.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to Body Count

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to Body Count
said by Body Count:

But I have a fire extinguisher on every floor of my house with one in my kitchen and one in my garage as well. Cheap protection to save my house in a fire. And per my wife's rules, I have a smoke alarm at my bedroom hallway, one in my son's room, and one by the kitchen.

You can't replace a life.

I suggest plastic piped residential sprinklers. Yes, they are code legal. They are usually orange. If you think about it, if you melt the pipe, it will put out the flame automatically :-D
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned) to old_tech

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to old_tech
said by old_tech:

Backstabbing is fine, as long as you know what you are doing, when you do it.

Backstabbing is the mark of a duffer, not to mention just plain dumb.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

1 recommendation

nunya to old_tech

MVM

to old_tech
Are you serious? I'm beginning to wonder.
Back stab receptacles are not fine. There's a big difference between a back stab and a back wire. Two different animals.

Also copper IS used for NG - like it or not.
medbuyer
join:2003-11-20
Memphis, TN

medbuyer to old_tech

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to old_tech
said by old_tech:

The citations you posted apply to commercial installations. Find me one or any of the hundreds of residential installs that are grounded or bonded to earth ground, also I want pictures with that.

now you're wanting pictures?

building a picture book for yourself now?

why don't you just take their word for it like you wanted everybody else to take YOUR word for it...

and just like what you said yourself before...THERE is nothing to prove for you!

old_tech
Premium Member
join:2013-03-31
Springfield, IL

old_tech to 54067323

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to 54067323
said by 54067323:

said by old_tech:

Backstabbing is fine, as long as you know what you are doing, when you do it.

Backstabbing is the mark of a duffer, not to mention just plain dumb.

Sorry, but there are a lot of jobs, that you will find outlets that are backstabbed, and not one that shows signs of overloading. Again, the person doing it, needs to know what they are doing.
old_tech

old_tech to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya
said by nunya:

Are you serious? I'm beginning to wonder.
Back stab receptacles are not fine. There's a big difference between a back stab and a back wire. Two different animals.

Also copper IS used for NG - like it or not.

As I stated to MatrixHDV, it takes a person knowing what they are doing, when it comes to backstabbing, and there are plenty of outlets out there in commercial and residential that are backstabbed, not back wired, and show no signs of overheating or on overloaded circuits.

Yes Copper is used for NG, but not all areas like mine allow it to be used. If it is, it will get tagged, and the person who installed it, will be required to replace with Black Iron.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to old_tech

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to old_tech
said by old_tech:

said by 54067323:

said by old_tech:

Backstabbing is fine, as long as you know what you are doing, when you do it.

Backstabbing is the mark of a duffer, not to mention just plain dumb.

Sorry, but there are a lot of jobs, that you will find outlets that are backstabbed, and not one that shows signs of overloading. Again, the person doing it, needs to know what they are doing..

Know what they're doing with backstabs? You mean, like poking enough wire in, or making sure the end you're poking in isn't bent?

I've pulled burned wires out of cheapo backstabbed outlets that were stripped properly and not bent. The issue isn't with the installer, it's with the crappy method used to retain the wire. It gets warm, heat makes the contacts lose their grip and then the connection fails.

This ain't rocket science, backstabs are ONLY used by contractors that want to shave 30 seconds off the time to connect a device. Anyone that actually wants the connection to last ignores them.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned) to old_tech

Member

to old_tech
said by old_tech:

Again, the person doing it, needs to know what they are doing.

That's bullshit and this is why, backstabs make a connection via a sharp spring loaded edge.

Now lets say a person strips the conductor just proper and inserts it straight in (twisting it will weaken the connection) and then manages to get the outlet into the box without mangling the connection, the problem will still appear if that outlet is used on a regular basis and will appear sooner if the outlet is heavily loaded.

The reason being each and every time a plug is inserted and removed from the outlet it moves the yoke ever so slightly, that is if the outlet is well secured, this movement twists the conductor ever so slightly causing a slight decrease in contact area, in turn increasing the resistance of the connection, this increased resistance eventually results in heating up the connection further exacerbating the problem until the connection fails.

If the homeowner is lucky they experience a loss of power at the offending outlet or downstream of it, the not so lucky ones have other experences.
54067323

54067323 (banned) to patcat88

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to patcat88
said by patcat88:

I suggest plastic piped residential sprinklers. Yes, they are code legal. They are usually orange. If you think about it, if you melt the pipe, it will put out the flame automatically :-D

As I remodeled our home, I installed piece by piece fast acting 155 degree residential sprinklers, right now I have only one bathroom not covered and about $350 into materials, which in my opinion is inexpensive for the protection they provide.

sk1939
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join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to old_tech

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to old_tech
said by old_tech:

Nunya, no I have not been doing it wrong. That is your interpretation. Again, in a residential install, the only requirement is that if the equipment is located in a unfinished space (ie garage or basement, or even poured floor crawl space), you are required by the NEC to have a GFCI protected outlet and that is it.

There is no requirement for residential installs to bond the chassis of the network rack or cabinet to a earth ground. Only time you would ground them, is if there is a outlet that is a part of the construction of the cabinet or rack, then it would be grounded as part of the electrical connection for that outlet.

There is a huge difference between resi installs and commercial, and with that, there is a really lax area in the treatment of low voltage installs, and how they are handled when placed into a rack or cabinet system for distribution.

Those low-voltage rules are generally applied to home automation and A/V equipment, as opposed to networking gear. Full network setups go by the code highlighted by Nunya.