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BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
reply to Ray

Re: No Class

I am not defending Scientologists or any other religion.
As a matter of fact, I was pointing out how dishonest and unscrupulous many within various religions can be.
There are many more who practice "legitimate" religions that are not this way.
All I was saying though is that is premature to dismiss all religion as bringing some good to people just because of the actions of a few people or by the philosophies of some otherwise far-out religions.
All of us have had some good points. I see many of them.
I agree that some religions are excuses to take advantage of the weak-minded, the gullible, the rich, etc.
But the God I believe in ain't short of cash, mister.
Another point of note I made is that of agreement with the original poster of this thread....if they can't take criticism of their religion or otherwise explain it away, then it is not much of a credible "religion" at all, but could be spawns of other motivations, such as money, power, etc., in much the same ways that the most murderous leaders of our times have used religion to justify their actions and direction.
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....


Anubis Prime

join:2001-06-01
Pittsburgh, PA
But...uhh...

I know how the '3 in 1' Jesus/Christian thing is unbelievable to some (especially the Phoenicians), but Hubbard said that Xenu, an evil intergalactic ruler banished humans to Earth 75,000,000 years ago, and that he (Hubbard) discovered 'implants' that were placed in humans (being nothing but bundles of intergalactic spirits) to track us, and that there is still some alien being imprisoned in a mountain on Earth somewhere.

Hell I could write a couple of Star Trek novels, and then claim that I had been contacted by "Kronax, the god of small electronics and handheld devices".

It's not an argument about religion. When the scientologists want to promote mainstream acceptance, they refer to it as 'a philosophy'...other times it's a 'religion'.

Do a search online and you will find people harassed, stalked and litigated.


BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
Yeah, you could.
I agree with you that "philosophies" or "religions" can be taken out of context, used as motivation to justify murder, etc.
This is an argument about religion. It's a matter of what you choose to believe.
If you want to be Christian, fine....Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Branch Davidian, whatever....it's all fine. You have that choice. If you think Scientology is a religion and you want to belong to that, fine....
But, I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them.
Oral Roberts said, "I saw a 900 foot Jesus in Tulsa, Oklahoma". His nurse said, "take your medicine, Mr. Roberts."
Some other TV evangelist (I had a brain-fart at the moment and can't remember the name), said that unless the could raise a million bucks in thirty days, that God would kill him (this was probably 5-7 years ago, and some of you posters may remember the incident I recall here), and he is *STILL* here....
It demonstrates that unscrupulous people have used religion to take advantage of others also, for purposes of money and power, and this has happened for as long as religion has existed, which has been pretty much since the dawn of man.
Like I said, believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....


SAM Hunter$

join:2001-05-11
USA
said by BrianDamage:
If you want to be Christian, fine....Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Branch Davidian, whatever....it's all fine. You have that choice. If you think Scientology is a religion and you want to belong to that, fine....
But, I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them.
You are being illogical. Just substitute "religion" with "conservative", "liberal", "NAACP", "NRA", "ACLU", "Democrat", "Republican" and so on. The same could be said for all of them as well as any other group. They all have a core set of values and beliefs but on an individual basis there are a lot of members and even representatives that have those negative beliefs and attitudes you speak about. Therefore you could not belong to any of those groups or any other group for that matter. Hypocrisy is an equal opportunity emotion and attitude.


BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
I thought we were talking about religion here.
"Substitute" this for that....okay, I can do that. I will address what you said.
I agree, hypocrisy exists in those areas you mentioned also. No doubt.
The Kennedy family is a perfect example of it. The NAACP is a good example of it...so is the ACLU, the political parties, and so on.
However, what do the core values of most of the parties mentioned have in common as a basis for their direction? Religion, in one form or another.
What has the present administration been talking about so much since Mr. Bush took office?
What has this war with Afghanistan meant for people? For most, it has religious significance. Some say that this is the US war against Islam, said by some to justify further terrorist acts against US targets and spur further US resentment of their actions....The US has waged a campaign to dispel these rumors that it is NOT a war against Islam, but of terrorism.
Yes, in the US, we are discriminately tolerant. What I mean is, we are tolerant when it suits us.
It is the same in this instance. It just so happens that this war and its' consequences are the most visible in the media today.
When you break this situation down to its' basic level, it is about religion. The Taliban and Al Quada used Islam as reason for what they perpetrated against us.
We use Christianity to justify our responses.
Our government is based on Christian principles, just as many Arab country's government are based on Muslim principles, and they are equally credited with political influence.
Many of those other groups of which you speak are the same.
The logic is to realize how religion has affected the operation as well as the creation and administration of government over the course of our history.
Anyone that says there is a bigger influence than religion in the formation of governments is ignoring the basic significance of their creation.
I would like for someone to point out more governments based on principles that don't have a basis in religious conviction than governments that do-
But I don't think anyone can.
That's my point....it's the underlying religious significance that brings the most to bear on an individual government's (and other groups, like the ones mentioned) ideaology and direction.
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....


SAM Hunter$

join:2001-05-11
USA

You miss the point.

You said that you can't belong to any religion because... "I have a problem with it if it starts to perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder.
That's the primary reason I don't belong to any religion, specifically....because of the rampant hypocrisy associated with most of them."

The exact same thing you've said about religion is true about all organizations to various degrees with regards to chapters, individuals, certain representatives and so on. Everyone of them have people or representatives, (no matter how few or non-representative of the majority) who "perpetuate intolerance, injustice, racism, and murder." Therefore, you couldn't belong to anything like the NRA, ACLU, Masons, NAACP, etc.

Your standards are unreasonable and the basis for your conclusion is illogical because of reasons I've stated. By your logic and standard religion is no different than any other organization in the context of those attitudes and hypocrisy they perpetuate at some level.
[text was edited by author 2002-03-27 17:23:31]


BrianDamage06
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
I will concede that to "varying degrees" like you describe, that these problems exist on other levels. I don't remember ever having dismissed that.
But, they are as not as significant as is religion in its' base forms, however.
A lot of organizations, individuals, chapters, etc., that you describe base their philosophies and by-laws, etc., on laws that are otherwise founded in religious principles.
My most poignant point is that out of all reasons people may have to do what they do, justify their actions, and legitimize their philosophy(ies), etc., they all mostly have a basis in some religious belief or another.
Sinn Fein did what they did out of religious belief. The PLO do what they do out of religious belief. The Israelis and the Jews do what they do out of religious belief. UBL, AlQuada, and the Taliban do what they do out of religious belief. We do what we do out of religious belief. These are all obviously recent examples. I could go on.
That's my point.
I also believe though that many religions of today have been horribly perverted from their original intents. Islam is a good example of this. Guys like Mullah Mohammed OMar and Usama bin Laden have twisted the Muslim religion to suit their own ends, just as many others have. Yassar Arafat, Benjamin Netanyahu, Saddam Hussein, and even Ariel Sharon are guilty of this, in my opinion.
That's a whole other rant. But I hope you see what I am trying to point out here.
--
We've got our eye on the firmaments, our hand on the armaments, our heads full of arguments, and words for our monuments.....