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Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

[Raiding] Preach Experiment: Accessibility and Apathy

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas


quote:
Published on Jun 3, 2013

The purpose of this video is to demonstrate the problems faced by new players when joining the game and why they do not feel the incentive to advance into the game. This video in no way is suggesting 'wow is too easy' or any other conclusions surrounding that statement people wish to force upon the video. The same goes for 'rose tinted goggles' or special snowflake' and any other nonsensical arguments that are not mentioned in any way

Some Reminders:
No friends/guidlies etc were in the dungeons.
I did 0 damage for the 5 mans and all of the initial LFR's until ToT
I did horrific Damage to appear on the dmg meter in ToT
I was kicked a grand total of once after using /follow as a test.

--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Mordred

join:2013-01-02
I can not see this at work, but I am very interested. I am going to check this out later.


DownLow
Nope...I Got Nothing
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Long Island
reply to Immer
First - Bravo...certainly hits the major points I have felt needed to be addressed over the past 2 or 3 years as the game was made easier for casuals (lucky for me because after playing this game since just before BC, over the past year I have stopped raiding and been a casual) and everything has been homogenized.

Second - LFR while benefiting casuals also brings lots of issues..one of which is people in LFR just don't care (well, after the first week or two)...it's just something that needs to get done each week (and usually on more than one toon). That explains why no one "noticed" him (I'm surprised he wasn't trolled and harassed more myself).

It's not the game per se, I think the bigger issue is the change in player psychology, maturity, etc. Thanks for Facebook games/apps, people don't want to invest time in a game without near-term benefits.

As I have always said, you play a game because it is fun...otherwise, it's work...and that isn't fun. The definition of fun has changed.
--
Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult!


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Immer
Interesting experiment.

This quote from the video I love the most regarding Throne of Thunder (or probably most current end game raids in general)....

quote:
"Ask yourself this...Is it worse that you had yourself a brilliant raid, that not many got to see, or that you had an amazing raid that was a limp dick version that most people saw?"
It's amazing the guy joined LFR on his Rogue for the top current raid, did little to no DPS, took the most damage, and cleared the whole place without being kicked.

The 5 man dungeon he ran, the people in the group didn't even say 1 word to him at all. All the while just standing there doing no DPS and collecting loot! Amazing.

The jist of the video basically boils down to this....
WoW was amazing when top end raids weren't easily accessible, including 5 man heroics. It kept that carrot on a stick out there, for mostly everyone. Myself included. Blizzard has made it so accessible now, that a new player with 1 day of playtime clearing the final (current) raid in the game without even doing any DPS has no motivation to keep playing afterwards. That's why they're bleeding subs, because it's turned into a complete joke.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
The experiment would have gone differently had he gone in there as a heals or tank. But, since dps are in the vast majority, this is experiment was the right call. DPS are getting carried all the time... and that creates a real problem when said dps goes from solo-queueing LFD (with the huge LFD buff) and being carried in LFR to dragging down normal mode attempts.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


puppy

join:2010-01-28
reply to Immer
Maybe LFR can set a min DPS limit so if some guy doesnt meet that, he doesnt roll on loot.

Would encourage people to not stand in fire either.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer
Well last night Feral solo tanked tot lfr #4
we called the off tank out on it and his reply was the main tank was just so awesome he didn't think he needed to do any taunting (the off tank did about 7k dps)
--
»www.change.org/petitions/create-···imcity-4


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer
Ya I don't know about you but if I open my recount I only look at the top 4-6, sometimes I'll open it up to see the whole raid and normal there's a big drop off at some point

and I'll look at the percent, oh cool I did 12% of the damage, wait a second we have 25 toons here, and 19 should be doing some damage I should really be between 5 and 6 percent (5*17=85, 6*17=102) that means I'm normally carrying someone
--
»www.change.org/petitions/create-···imcity-4


cat666

join:2013-04-26
reply to Immer
Good video.

I'll be honest, if the boss is dying then I don't pay any attention to the DPS of anyone lower than me. Even when I level alts via dungeons, I'll let people off as long as things are dying fast. I occasionally call out non-DPSing players in 5 mans.

I have my Grid set up to show spec (not dungeon role) so usually call out someone is in the wrong spec. Likewise I tend to watch loot rolls and will call out ninjas (usually hunters).


Ramikor

@ultzindustries.com
reply to Immer
Been thinking about this for a couple of days:

I'm not surprised that nobody noticed him. Almost since LFR started, I assumed that 1/2-2/3 of the players in any LFR are not very skilled, and I EXPECT to carry part of that burden. I've thought of this as "giving back" to the WoW community. But Preach raises a very good question as to whether the quick leveling and the ease of LFR is bad for the new player.

I speculate that Bliz thought giving the "casual" player quick leveling and easy access to end content would encourage casual players to improve their skills so they could see the real thing. The subscriber losses and absymal play in LFR suggest that instead it devalued the game experience. Easy leveling both PREVENTS new players from learning their toons, and tells new players that SKILLS DON'T MATTER. You value something by what it costs you. It costs new players very little to reach end-content, so they value it very little. It requires no skill to get to end content, so skill doesn't matter to them.

Leveling is the de-facto training system for players. If you get X number of experience points, you are ready to advance. The educational system is broken. As the vid shows, a new player can be carried by absolute strangers from the time he qualifies for LFD; and LFD groups have little incentive to teach a player. A new player pretty much just needs to queue for LFD X number of times, and will have enough points to be max level. In my experience the bulk of players in LFD are alts of experienced players, who are just looking to get through as quickly as possible, and will can carry a weak player to do it. We have little incentive to teach some noob from some other realm that we may never encounter again how to be a better player, and instead more often snark at them for being a noob and slowing us down. Even if we do condescend to give that player some tips, how much will he learn in a 15 minute dungeon? New players who are leveling through LFD and/or battlegrounds are like bullied schoolchildren who are passed to the next grade to be with their peer group -- they don't have the skills they need to perform at the next level and haven't much enjoyed the experience; they keep getting passed to the next level until they are max level with zero skills. They then get carried through LFR a dozen times (getting snarked at if they're noticed at all), there's nothing else to see, there's no reason to learn skills because they've seen everything, and it really hasn't been all that pleasant anyway. At that point, why play anymore?

This is a WoW societal cancer that has no easy solution. The random scenario / dungeon / raid feature solved some real problems for the player base; but it is having unintended consequences. Making LFD more difficult or eliminating it altogether will only make it harder for established players to level alts, without improving the skills of new players. The upcoming "proving grounds" may help (and I'm looking forward to them to improve my healer alt skills), but it requires the new player to want to improve skills; which is not a given because skills don't matter, and much of the game experience is unpleasant.

Frankly, I think the future of WoW depends on the willingness of "dedicated" players to reach out to, socialize with, and mentor new players, whether individually or in their guilds. If we can put new players into pleasant situations where their play does matter, and they can learn, it will mean something to them and invest them in the game. I think back on my WoW experience, and realize that I likely would be an awful player if not for 2 or 3 more experienced players reaching out and teaching me at various points over the years. However, this isn't easy because WoW is a game, and the established player presumably is online to play for his own entertainment, not to entertain the other players.

I personally need to figure out how to pay it forward. Bringing good DPS into LFR isn't giving back to the WoW community - it's what I have to do to valcap. It shames me to realize that I haven't paid it forward; at least not enough. I need to figure out how to be more of the solution than the problem.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by Ramikor :

Frankly, I think the future of WoW depends on the willingness of "dedicated" players to reach out to, socialize with, and mentor new players, whether individually or in their guilds.

I agree, fully. It is our responsibility to train them to build our guild raiding teams... not Blizzards.

But I appreciate that Blizzard is still trying to find ways of providing me (guild/raid leader) with ways of improving our players... definitely looking forward to the new training instances and stuff in the 5.4 notes.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Immer
I did a thread a few weeks back about how to bring back the Vanilla feel. Some of it was silly but Ramikor, you have hit on the head what I have been feeling for a while. WoW is now simplified and seems to be lacking in challenge for those of us who are seasoned and worked hard to get to where we are. I also believe that for our game to improve, we must strive to fascilitate and work at that improvement.

However, it is difficult in one respect to do this because when we offer advice leveling in LFD, we are often ignored. I believe it is because that many new players are not really looking at chat at all because they have always been soloing or at least not with friends. Further, we see the problems with their actions but they do not see it. One example is when I have to tell a rogue about 10 times in one run that he/she needs to stand behind their target and not in front of it with me (tank). I am ignored. Not because they don't care (which they may not) but more like they arent taught to care about others. WoW is no longer a community of friends and peers but a sea of passing strangers.


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
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1 edit
yeah, and that is also an unfortunate result of the increased accessibility of the game. There is no longer that obvious unattainable goal that new players recognize they'd like to achieve. If a new player is content to solo to 90, do mediocre in LFD and LFR to simply finish the fight... there's little motivation to do more. I find many don't even care that they aren't in the top 4 dmg, or the top 2 healers because they clearly just assume those guys are the "hardcore raiders" and they have gear that is out of reach to them.

Preach hates the heroic extra boss thing (from other interviews)... because, in his view, they've been completely underwhelming. I wouldn't mind having exclusive content get a little more attention. If Sinestra and RA Den weren't great... fine... let's make them better. Even in the old-school console RPG, there was usually an "extended ending" for full-completion kill. That is (I think) where the devs should be going with the extra boss. Extra lore, extra difficulty... totally new encounter mechanic... everything.

I also wouldn't mind (and this seems like a reversal in some respects) if the LFR ending of a raiding tier never saw the big-bad die... but escape. Only in Normal does he die, and only on Heroic do we get a full, extended-cut lore scene with some major even taking place in the capital city. They've done a great job of enhancing the mundane... I'd like some attention to go back to the Epic.

edit: Actually... now that LFR is an integral part of the entire gearing progression in MoP... I wouldn't mind seeing it stop halfway through the "final raid"... never to be completed. You get all of the gear available in LFR (half the bosses) and then you need to learn how to raid for real to see the last bosses. This is a complete reversal from my DS days... but that was back when we only had one LFR, and it was so cool then. Now that it's an everyday thing... we need it. We need a reason to improve how we play. I'm seeing ToT(LFR) geared dps toons pulling MSV Normal dps. Something is horribly wrong with that... I think having an anti-climactic LFR ending compared to Normal/Heroic is the better answer, but simply stopping LFR half way into the final raid would be less expensive.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Immer
Welcome to socialism.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Immer
Blizzard clearly fucked up with their "easily accessible" gameplay model. Unfortunately, there's no going back now. Which is ironic, because WoW became the largest most successful MMO on the planet under a complete opposite gameplay model.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer
IMO add in some norm mode only bosses

IE make MSV LFR 6 bosses but norm be 8 bosses

then in addition to the norm mode extras toss in a end of raid heroic only boss, with say 8 ilvl's higher gear, then add in some cool RP.

Like instead of the floor just falling out (IE whats his name from BoT) you have some NPC's show up in some way and remove an item from the boss, you'd see this item on the loot window but no one would be allowed to loot it (it'd be for the NPC) then the NPC goes and domes something that ends up leading the way to the special boss.

Maybe have the NPC be very cool but fall in battle to the trash leading the the boss, or something like that, or even have the NPC pull the boss and fall then when you kill the boss the NPC does some more RP.

IMO that would be cooler

maybe even have some NPC's summon the special boss
--
»www.change.org/petitions/create-···imcity-4


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Ghastlyone
said by Ghastlyone:

Blizzard clearly fucked up with their "easily accessible" gameplay model. Unfortunately, there's no going back now. Which is ironic, because WoW became the largest most successful MMO on the planet under a complete opposite gameplay model.

not really... it's biggest success was having EQ quality epicness without it's eye-gouging punishment for failure. In many regards, it started as the "easier MMO". In EQ, if you sucked at playing in a group, you never leveled past 20 (where 60 was the first cap).

said by navymaverick:

Welcome to socialism.

that system just plain sucks, lol.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
What do you mean, not really? WoW grew and became the most successful MMO under a much tougher gameplay model, compared to today. Content wasn't easily accessible by everyone. Epic gear wasn't handed out like candy.

Yes, it started as an easier MMO then EQ. That's all great and dandy, and we can agree with that. WoW as it currently stands though, is so far night and day difference gameplay wise from Vanilla, TBC, and (early)Wrath, it's almost not even recognizable.



navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
said by Ghastlyone:

What do you mean, not really? WoW grew and became the most successful MMO under a much tougher gameplay model, compared to today. Content wasn't easily accessible by everyone. Epic gear wasn't handed out like candy.

Yes, it started as an easier MMO then EQ. That's all great and dandy, and we can agree with that. WoW as it currently stands though, is so far night and day difference gameplay wise from Vanilla, TBC, and (early)Wrath, it's almost not even recognizable.

I believe what Immer meant is that WoW compared to EQ was "dumbed down" a bit. I retained its challenge to the player but was lax on consequences in the learning curve. So EQ failures meant loss of items (I believe) and the inability to move on until you have at least grasped the utilities of your abilities and proper use of team work. WoW was not quite as strict but was still pretty difficult. You are right however that WoW 2004 and WoW 2013 are night and day.

EQ = Graduate level work
WoW 1.0 = Bachelorette
Color by number = kinder garden
WoW 5.2 = preschool


Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Immer
Blizz was faced with a tricky problem, in my opinion. They spend loads of time and effort developing awesome raid instances... and only a very small percentage of the playerbase was ever seeing that content. Reasons for that were varied: some don't enjoy group play; some were casual players who didn't perform well enough to be in a raid group; some were skilled players who gave up on raiding due to guild drama, or lack of time to commit to a raid schedule, et cetera. In any case, Blizz wanted to make it easier for more players to see end-game raiding content. I agree with that decision... I just think they tried to solve the problem in a very bass-ackward way.
...
Introducing more in-game tools to make it easier to form a raid group? Fine. But:
(a) They should never have dumbed down the difficulty of the instances. If groups wipe, they wipe. If the encounters were at normal difficulty, people would have to bring their "A" game - people making it through instances while afk, or on /follow, would be impossible. Maybe tune down difficulty a SMALL amount, in order to compensate for lack of Vent-style communication.
(b) The fact that your LFR partners could come from ANY server, means you'll probably never see them again, and reduces accountability. LFR should have been kept single-server, or at least single-battlegroup (this would help with low-pop servers); if you know that you'll be recognized when you head into your next LFR/LFD, you're less likely to act like an asshat. PLUS - you would over time build up a community feeling... you'd say to yourself, "hey, I saw that rogue last week in part 2 of ToT, he did awesome DPS", and maybe even give a /wave, or start some banter in /raid.
...
As LFR is set up now, you wait 30 minutes for an LFR queue to pop, you get grouped with 24 strangers for 45 minutes, and 10 players put forth 80% of the effort that goes into clearing the instance, while the other 15 players do just enough to avoid being kicked. Maybe you get some loot, maybe not. There is no feeling of "YES, I CAN'T BELIEVE WE FINALLY KILLED THAT BOSS!!! WAY TO GO GUYS!!!" Just, "how soon can this be over, I want my 90 VP, and please god let my tier shoulders drop".


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to navymaverick
said by navymaverick:

I believe what Immer meant is that WoW compared to EQ was "dumbed down" a bit. I retained its challenge to the player but was lax on consequences in the learning curve. So EQ failures meant loss of items (I believe) and the inability to move on until you have at least grasped the utilities of your abilities and proper use of team work. WoW was not quite as strict but was still pretty difficult. You are right however that WoW 2004 and WoW 2013 are night and day.

The problem Blizzard faces now with this type of " easy accessibility" model is that, not only does it completely leave newer players with a complete lack of motivation to keep raiding, but it at the same time, it completely diminishes most accomplishments of the higher end raiders.

If a "hard core" raider is going to strive for a Title for completing an end game raid and bust their ass doing so, only to have a "casual" like in the OP video ride some coat tails of other players, and basically play like complete crap and obtain the same title, what's the point?


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
Your point is invalid

LFR doesn't award titles.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Caelharrad
said by Caelharrad:

As LFR is set up now, you wait 30 minutes for an LFR queue to pop, you get grouped with 24 strangers for 45 minutes, and 10 players put forth 80% of the effort that goes into clearing the instance, while the other 15 players do just enough to avoid being kicked. Maybe you get some loot, maybe not. There is no feeling of "YES, I CAN'T BELIEVE WE FINALLY KILLED THAT BOSS!!! WAY TO GO GUYS!!!" Just, "how soon can this be over, I want my 90 VP, and please god let my tier shoulders drop".

Another thing that is quite amazing, is all the time and effort Blizzard has put into emplementing in-game tools to try and "prop up" and bolster the social aspect of the game. And at the end of the day, it's actually had the opposite effect.

It's easier to group now more then ever in the history of the game, and people won't even say one word to you in a dungeon or raid.


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Ghastlyone
Ghastly, I could not agree with you more.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to DarkLogix
said by DarkLogix:

Your point is invalid

LFR doesn't award titles.

Okay so they don't get a title, but they still get the same achievement from clearing the place?

What about Normal modes awarding the same titles as heroic?


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
you get an achev per boss on heroic

go find archy your trolling is sub par.


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Ghastlyone
said by Ghastlyone:

said by DarkLogix:

Your point is invalid

LFR doesn't award titles.

Okay so they don't get a title, but they still get the same achievement from clearing the place?

What about Normal modes awarding the same titles as heroic?

Because originally the titles were awarded for finishing them on normal. It was for those who had made the sacrifice to go through the entire raiding content and experience in game. Blizz gave teh same title to those who did it on heroic as well, which some of them did normal first before going to heroic and already ahd the title.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to navymaverick
In EQ, you were always making decisions that were irreversible, beginning with stat point allocations at character creation. You could only solo to about mid teens, then you were stuck in grind groups until you were at max level. Death not only meant a corpse run, but you lost experience each time you died... you could actually lose a level from wiping too much. Everything was a grind... everything.

WoW was candyland by comparison. That was its competition at the time and WoW destroyed EQ... leaving only the "hardcore raiders" on EQ servers. EQII was supposed to be the answer to WoW, but it didn't work out for Sony.

So, blizzard's model was (and I think still is) to make WoW a fun game for casuals to level up, and then challenge maxed-out toons to do great things as a group. Where they've gone wrong is shifting that line too far to the right... (in favor of the casual player). Too many players are content to finishing a game "on easy" and never care to try it on a more difficult setting. WoW needs more "Insane Mode Only" content. Like habinero in a good chilli, it doesn't need a lot... don't need to destroy the palette, but a little flavor really makes the chilli sing.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to DarkLogix
said by DarkLogix:

you get an achev per boss on heroic

So what about Tier gear and set bonuses? Someone can skate through LFR with no effort and obtain nearly the same gear? Set bonuses "used" to be something you strived towards, and took an extremely long time to obtain.

said by DarkLogix:

go find archy your trolling is sub par.

This isn't trolling. You should know trolling when you see it, because you've done your fair share in the automotive forum.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
I don't think tier gear should drop in LFR. it should only be off-tier.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.