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Criticals

join:2010-05-30

Should content be produced just for the best players?

This is a major debate i see. People think that the very best players should only get to see certain content. Overall I think that the community is divided on this issue. The largest part of the community thinks that for sure they are entitled to at least see all of the content too. This is where i think the game has gone wrong.

I think makin content for the top 1% of the players is bigger than just the 1% than get to see it. Although its a dream for most it gives the people something to strive for. Its more than just the people seeing the content that the content is for. The people that go in there and get the gear keep everyone else coming back. It keeps the guild fighting through the previous tier in hopes of one day reaching that level. Now that they have gone back to the model of bringing back raid progression I wouldnt mind if raids of different difficulties launched along side each other.

Imagine if ToT was an 8 boss raid. Then there was a three boss raid that was significantly harder then 1 boss that was heroic only. LFR would be available for those 8 bosses but the other 4 would drop mainly weapons and cool trinkets but be much harder to kill. Similar to T4. You had Karazahn, then High king Mulgar in Gruuls Lair, along with Mag. This made for more exciting raid. It adds more variety to the content available and allows them to give a whole different theme to specific bosses.

Overall though im waiting for Wildstar. The devs have already sworn that their 40 man raids will not be for everyone. They might be tweaked for balance but they said that they WILL NOT BE NERFED. Which i am holding them too. They said the content being designed will be for the top %age of players and I think that a good content model.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

Heroic Raid bosses (and Elite mode kills).

The gear that drops from heroic dungeons should be amazing. I'd even be cool with having a special graphic for heroic tier gear acquired while the content was current expansion... but reduced to recolored normals only for drops obtained in an outdated expansion.

Or tie the exclusive gear to Guild Raid Achievements. If your toon has the heroic raid gear AND your guild has the heroic raid achievement, you can trade up to a special set.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Criticals

join:2010-05-30

The thing is that the gear from harder content has to be exclusive imo. There has to be something that most players just will never get. Things that people will never get to see. It might sound like you are limiting people but trust me its much larger than the people that just get to see the content. Eveyone wants what they cant have. Its simple human nature. People will always feel drivin to pursue something if its out of reach. It has to have its own unique models and cant just be a stat upgrade.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Criticals

The largest part of the community thinks that they are the best. Realistically, we are all too casual to be considered in that tier. Content for the best is funny because most advocates for this include themselves in the category without any justification or reasoning, but assume they will be included.
--
Goggalor: "Freedom of speech is not freedom of asshattery."



Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to Criticals

To answer your question: Yes I think it should only be for high end raiders. Now this is coming from someone who used to do high end raiding but now my play time is minimal at best (honestly I havent logged in a almost 2 weeks, but that speaks to my hate of this game more than anything else).
High end raiders deserve high end gear. If I am a good runner I may win a t-shirt at a regional event, hell maybe one day if Im lucky I might get to see the olympics or be an alternate on the team (none of this shit is true, just an example) but I shouldnt be able to run in the olympics or win a medal unless I earn it.

That maybe a shitty comparison I grant you, but the logic is the same. Greater effort =greater rewards. Just because I can run (Log in) doesnt mean I get the best prizes (Loot).

I think this game has been around long enough to allow a collection of gear to make one feel unigue using transmog if that is one's argument and there is certainly youtube if you "deserve to see all the content". But if Im wearing a full set of tier 23 gear then I damn well need to earn it.

That is why teir gear should be out of LFR, that is why there is nothing special about this game. BMAH is as dumb a fucking idea as possible. I love flying to do Glleon and seeing 14 Onyxia mounts and 20 Ashes of A'lar....makes the game feel so awesome.

I remember when one person on our server had the onyxia mount. Remember when that kid was dying about 5 years ago and Make a Wish let him visit Blizzard and as a grand gesture they gave him Ashes of A'lar....and you know what, it was a grand gesture and the kid loved it. How do you think that kid would feel nowadays if that happened....might as well give him pony as special as that shit is now.

This game is a fuckin shadow of what was great about it 2-3 expacs ago.


Criticals

join:2010-05-30
reply to stvnbrs

said by stvnbrs:

The largest part of the community thinks that they are the best. Realistically, we are all too casual to be considered in that tier. Content for the best is funny because most advocates for this include themselves in the category without any justification or reasoning, but assume they will be included.

Then if im not included in the best players then so be it. I am fine not seeing some of the content. Like Skittles said I dont think i deserve a medal for jogging when people are running at an olympic pace. What i like to do though is have goals to strive for. Even unobtainable goals.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Criticals

No, content should not be produced only for a single group of players. It should be produced for every single person in the game. Now, if only half those people put the effort in to clear that content, then so be it.


Cuthgar

join:2009-07-14
Palmdale, CA

Ghastlyone said it perfectly. I don't see how people could still play this game knowing they are spending most of their development time on stuff most will not be able to partake in.


Criticals

join:2010-05-30
reply to Ghastlyone

Yea everyone in the game could get in there an try it out. Im not saying it would be gated or would require and attunement. What im saying is that the diffculty would be like that of a heroic raid boss not allowing it to be adjusted to LFR or Flex raid or even sometimes normal. So most of the players downing that content would be geared through then normal content. Its not saying "hey you cant come in here" but its just a way or telling everyone that "hey you can come die here if you arent geared or really good".


Criticals

join:2010-05-30
reply to Cuthgar

said by Cuthgar:

Ghastlyone said it perfectly. I don't see how people could still play this game knowing they are spending most of their development time on stuff most will not be able to partake in.

I explained this in my first post. Im talking a small percentage of the content would not work with LFR or Flex raid with maybe one boss of that not allowing even normal. I said that its not about seeing the content. Its about havin goals that you may never reach. Its about having something to play for. I dont know if you ever play team sports or sports in general as a kid but I did and our team was fairly bad. We lost a lot until our senior year when we sort of pulled together. The fact that we lost made us a better team in the end. Thats sort of the samething im applying to this. Near unobtainable goals are never a bad thing if the content is rewarding and offers specific gear. It cant be simple stat upgrades.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

said by Criticals:

said by Cuthgar:

Ghastlyone said it perfectly. I don't see how people could still play this game knowing they are spending most of their development time on stuff most will not be able to partake in.

I explained this in my first post. Im talking a small percentage of the content would not work with LFR or Flex raid with maybe one boss of that not allowing even normal. I said that its not about seeing the content. Its about havin goals that you may never reach. Its about having something to play for. I dont know if you ever play team sports or sports in general as a kid but I did and our team was fairly bad. We lost a lot until our senior year when we sort of pulled together. The fact that we lost made us a better team in the end. Thats sort of the samething im applying to this. Near unobtainable goals are never a bad thing if the content is rewarding and offers specific gear. It cant be simple stat upgrades.

I think we're both on the same page. Maybe I worded my post wrong. LFR should never have been implemented, period. If a raid instance (like Naxx) is released, and only 10% of the players out there see it because they're putting the effort in, then I don't know what to tell the other 90% of people not clearing it, other then tough shit. Better luck next patch.


Taino

join:2010-10-15
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Criticals

The crux of the argument is LFR. IMO LFR should be removed, and the old system of gearing put back in. Flex raiding will fill the void for the struggling guilds. As for gearing put the previous tiers valor gear as justice gear. Blizzard really dropped the ball with badly itemized blue gear and worthless jp in MoP. Even the heroic 5 man gear was pretty crapalicious.

I agree with Ghastlyone See Profile on the content issue. Remember when the devs were complaining that maybe 3% of all wow players actually raided Nax at level 60. Yeah we don't need to return to those days.

IMO this xpac has been a huge step backwards.


Cuthgar

join:2009-07-14
Palmdale, CA
reply to Criticals

Teaches me not to read the 1st post entirely. I'm not sure of the numbers and haven't played for months, but are there that many more people clearing all of the heroic content? Firelands if I remember offered a mount for clearing rags on heroic content, and it wasn't until a few patches after did people start farming it.

With that said, I would not be opposed to them creating an additional boss at the end of the heroic content for those elite players that can clear everything. They could add very rare vanity items (mounts, titles. transmog) that drop off the extra boss to show that they are amongst the few. At the same time, they would need to shut the boss down after each new content patch. As long as it wouldnt take too much development time away from content that everyone could access I don't see the harm in it. I don't think many can clear the brawler's guild stuff but they keep adding harder fights in there.....



navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Criticals

This is a similar arguement for the American Dream. Everyone has the opportunity to work hard and make their own decisions to press towards where they aim to go whether or not they get there or not. Unlike the American dream, concievably everyone in WoW actually CAN get good enough to make it and have a spot for themselves. Should content be produced just for the best players? Yes, absolutley. But it is not blizz deciding who those players are, it is the players themselves.

If we gave everyone a paycheck whether they work hard for it or not, even if it is smaller than the paychecks of those who work, we slap those who put in the effort right in the face. If we handed the unachievers (those who do not want to fully achieve out of their own choice to not strive to do better) transportation, a house, healthcare, education, food... we still are not being fair to those who go out and strive to earn it.

No one who plays WoW has the absolute RIGHT to all of the content up front. If they wanted that they sould buy the book and read only the last chapter. The intent of ANY game is to play it through to the end the way everyone else does and not skip to the rewards the easy way. For an MMO RPG who swears against cheat codes and bots, LFR sure F***ed up royally, LFR is the best bot out there.


Criticals

join:2010-05-30
reply to Cuthgar

said by Cuthgar:

...With that said, I would not be opposed to them creating an additional boss at the end of the heroic content for those elite players that can clear everything. They could add very rare vanity items (mounts, titles. transmog) that drop off the extra boss to show that they are amongst the few. At the same time, they would need to shut the boss down after each new content patch...

I dont agree with shutting the boss down. This to me would be wasting the content. Also the normal and heroic only bosses have to drop gear. You can just throw a mount and some pets on it. People have to feel like they are really missing out. Everyone can always look at the content as optional because at the end of the day the heroic content doesnt do anything to really make their character more special unless it drops special gear. The gear is to me has to be.

Abyl1

join:2010-11-03
Saint Paul, MN
reply to Criticals

I like the way they showed the dungeons in Panda, having to do some quests through the instance solo let's you see the graphics and layout. Granted no bosses, but I like the concept...



Gork
Ou812ic

join:2001-10-06
Bountiful, UT
reply to Criticals

Yes.

I think a very large part of what is currently dragging WoW down is the broken reward system. And part of an effective reward system is to have something seemingly unattainable in place, which players can work toward and a few can feel accomplishment when they reach it. Others can see what is possible to obtain if they want to put in the time and work hard. If all it takes is faceroll I think people get bored much more quickly. It isn't about giving people what they ask for, it's about giving them what they'll love.



Gork
Ou812ic

join:2001-10-06
Bountiful, UT
reply to Criticals

Duplicate post, unable to delete.



cat666

join:2013-04-26
reply to Criticals

To answer the question. Yes and no.

Blizzard shouldn't waste time doing something that only 1% of people will see, but they should also give people something to work towards.

Personally I like being able to complete content whilst it's still current as it's a challenge. I can go back an do ICC now, and the vast majority of the mechanics can be cheesed due to level/gear. I'm still sort of seeing the content though. Whilst I like that LFR allowed me to see content whilst it was still current, it has sort of killed the community of the game. I'm sure most people would be happy to wait a tier to do LFR, so whilst it's not current content as such, it still sort of is.

Hopefully Flex Raiding will help.



stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Criticals

You know I remember BC also. I remember having to constantly gear new players because after they got what they needed they left to a higher content clearing guild. I don't want WoW to turn back into that, where guilds were stepping stones and loyalty to them was rewarded with constant turnover and no-progression. Alar and Ony were over 2 expansions ago, they aren't considered elite anymore. If you want elite, go for some of the current mounts out of this expansion.

What bothers me most about players that complain about all players being able to play everything is that they use old examples to prove their point. If the game is too easy, play heroic. If you want exclusive mounts and gear, go after the current content, don't complain that your outdated achievements are outdated. Stay on the current edge to gain epeen, instead of accomplishing something then expecting it to be considered as significant 2 expansions later. Achievements are to stroke egos, get the realm firsts or the before nerf achieves and now you have separated yourself. I am sure that this will be said about the Galleon mount in 2 expacs as well.
--
Goggalor: "Freedom of speech is not freedom of asshattery."



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

said by stvnbrs:

If the game is too easy, play heroic. If you want exclusive mounts and gear, go after the current content, don't complain that your outdated achievements are outdated. Stay on the current edge to gain epeen, instead of accomplishing something then expecting it to be considered as significant 2 expansions later.

Bravo.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


cat666

join:2013-04-26

1 recommendation

reply to stvnbrs

said by stvnbrs:

You know I remember BC also. I remember having to constantly gear new players because after they got what they needed they left to a higher content clearing guild. I don't want WoW to turn back into that, where guilds were stepping stones and loyalty to them was rewarded with constant turnover and no-progression. Alar and Ony were over 2 expansions ago, they aren't considered elite anymore. If you want elite, go for some of the current mounts out of this expansion.

What bothers me most about players that complain about all players being able to play everything is that they use old examples to prove their point. If the game is too easy, play heroic. If you want exclusive mounts and gear, go after the current content, don't complain that your outdated achievements are outdated. Stay on the current edge to gain epeen, instead of accomplishing something then expecting it to be considered as significant 2 expansions later. Achievements are to stroke egos, get the realm firsts or the before nerf achieves and now you have separated yourself. I am sure that this will be said about the Galleon mount in 2 expacs as well.

I agree. It's like being annoyed that everyone can now buy a smartphone, when 5 years ago only the richest people could. It's cool if you get a Frostbrood Vanquisher still, but I'd be more impressed with a linked cheevo with the date you got it on it

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to stvnbrs

I have to agree, Guilds being stepping stones is not a place we want to return to.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


BG5150

join:2008-08-14
New York, NY
reply to cat666

said by cat666:

I agree. It's like being annoyed that everyone can now buy a smartphone, when 5 years ago only the richest people could. It's cool if you get a Frostbrood Vanquisher still, but I'd be more impressed with a linked cheevo with the date you got it on it

So, you want to see the receipt for my iPhone 1?


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

said by BG5150:

said by cat666:

I agree. It's like being annoyed that everyone can now buy a smartphone, when 5 years ago only the richest people could. It's cool if you get a Frostbrood Vanquisher still, but I'd be more impressed with a linked cheevo with the date you got it on it

So, you want to see the receipt for my iPhone 1?

only if you can show me that you are still "on the cutting edge"... otherwise... you'd just be proving you are a has-been.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to BG5150

Show me your receipt for your iPhone 1 and I will show you my 2 year old receipt for my 3GS.



Carpie

join:2012-10-19
united state
kudos:4
reply to Criticals

I think the answer is just timing. For current content, only the best should experience it. As it ages, start opening it up for everyone. So LFR for example, instead of allowing it to be opened up at the beginning of releases, don't open it up until the end of the releases. I'd say open it up two weeks before the drop of the next release (because that is how long it will take people to do it and get jaded of it) which would allow people to get caught up on the story line and update their gear levels a little before they jump again.

Same concept with the mounts. I hear you Skittles on the Ashes, comment and I get it. But like other content, it's time passes after awhile. It's from previous expansions and currently people get it just based on RNG, not by earning it so go ahead and put it on the BMAH or whatever. BUT, the big BUT here is, replace them with other super epic mounts. So if you kill heroic Lei Shen you get the baddest ass mount Azeroth has ever known. Let that (and things like it) be the carrot to get people raiding.

This way everyone wins. Those that earn and deserve recognition get it and get to strut around town on their pretties for a few releases, and those that aren't able to (or don't with to) compete will still get the opportunity to see the content and stay up on the storyline.
--
Absölution -- 6/6 MSV, 4/6 HoF, 4/4 ToES, 1/12 ToT
Pride and Ego -- 6/6 MSV 1/6H, 6/6 HoF, 4/4 ToES, 2/12 ToT



cat666

join:2013-04-26
reply to BG5150

said by BG5150:

said by cat666:

I agree. It's like being annoyed that everyone can now buy a smartphone, when 5 years ago only the richest people could. It's cool if you get a Frostbrood Vanquisher still, but I'd be more impressed with a linked cheevo with the date you got it on it

So, you want to see the receipt for my iPhone 1?

No, but the point remains the same.

When you got your iPhone 1 you were the coolest person in town, but 2 years later the price had dropped and it was available to far more people. You had it first though, and that means something.

Now nobody cares about your iPhone 1, just like nobody really cares about the Kingslayer title.


Carpie

join:2012-10-19
united state
kudos:4

said by cat666:

just like nobody really cares about the Kingslayer title.

Jamie Lannister cares.
--
Absölution -- 6/6 MSV, 4/6 HoF, 4/4 ToES, 1/12 ToT
Pride and Ego -- 6/6 MSV 1/6H, 6/6 HoF, 4/4 ToES, 2/12 ToT


Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31

lol....nice