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devcore

join:2008-07-26
Pickering, ON

Verizon to buy Wind Mobile ?

This looks quite interesting:

»www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2···ind.html


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
said by devcore:

This looks quite interesting:

»www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2···ind.html

That doesn't even pay for the spectrum, If Mobilicty is worth 350m Wind is worth more then twice that amount. I also don't think Verizon would be satisfied with only 10% of the market.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......

julienvf

join:2008-12-30
Verdun, QC
kudos:1
reply to devcore
I would like to see T-Mobile outbid them.

mikee

join:2012-12-21
Gloucester, ON
kudos:1
reply to devcore
I really doubt wind will take 700m$

got_milk

join:2007-08-22
Georgetown, ON
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

I also don't think Verizon would be satisfied with only 10% of the market.

There might be 10% of the market now. Wind has lots of room to grow, the only real barrier holding them back is their relatively tiny infrastructure (compared to the big three) - once you're outside of the GTA or the few bigger cities that have Wind coverage, Wind simply isn't a viable option for you. If they continued Wind's competitive pricing and dumped cash into rapidly building out their network and adding LTE, Wind could very well become a huge player in the market with Verizon at the helm.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
said by got_milk:

said by elwoodblues:

I also don't think Verizon would be satisfied with only 10% of the market.

There might be 10% of the market now. Wind has lots of room to grow, the only real barrier holding them back is their relatively tiny infrastructure (compared to the big three) - once you're outside of the GTA or the few bigger cities that have Wind coverage, Wind simply isn't a viable option for you. If they continued Wind's competitive pricing and dumped cash into rapidly building out their network and adding LTE, Wind could very well become a huge player in the market with Verizon at the helm.

My point is, that the Feds would have to change their rules again, if Wind got bigger then 10%. We can't have foreigners owning our Telecom companies
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......

got_milk

join:2007-08-22
Georgetown, ON
said by elwoodblues:

My point is, that the Feds would have to change their rules again, if Wind got bigger then 10%. We can't have foreigners owning our Telecom companies

Fair enough. Everyone would be benefiting if the rules were changed again, however - Verizon holds a pretty big reputation down south for gouging their customers but they hold nothing on what's up here. It would do the industry good to have a huge player enter the market like Verizon.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

My point is, that the Feds would have to change their rules again, if Wind got bigger then 10%. We can't have foreigners owning our Telecom companies

If Verizon bought Wind, and Wind subsequently passed the 10% threshold, they could continue to grow - just not with mergers or acquisitions.

Edit: Also, $700m definitely covers Wind's spectrum - they spent $442m.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to got_milk
said by got_milk:

It would do the industry good to have a huge player enter the market like Verizon.

I disagree. We don't need a 4th national player that plays the same game as the 3 we already have. I see little to no benefit to consumers if Verizon takes over Wind.

got_milk

join:2007-08-22
Georgetown, ON
said by bt:

said by got_milk:

It would do the industry good to have a huge player enter the market like Verizon.

I disagree. We don't need a 4th national player that plays the same game as the 3 we already have. I see little to no benefit to consumers if Verizon takes over Wind.

They couldn't get away with the same game - they would need to do something to get Robellus customers to migrate over to Wind. Without offering a solid LTE network and highly competitive prices that simply won't happen. So, at least for the first few years, a Verizon-owned Wind Mobile would still be a benefit to everyone.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by got_milk:

They couldn't get away with the same game - they would need to do something to get Robellus customers to migrate over to Wind. Without offering a solid LTE network and highly competitive prices that simply won't happen. So, at least for the first few years, a Verizon-owned Wind Mobile would still be a benefit to everyone.

Exactly. They'd have no choice but to be competitively priced otherwise they will duffer the same fate as Wind.

And before anyone says anything about Videotron, the only reason they are able to get away with acting and pricing just like Robellus is because they have television, home phone and Internet they can bundle wireless phone in with. Verizon has no such luxury in Canada.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to devcore
This proposed deal should be denied.

Here »o.canada.com/2013/06/25/bell-can···-system/ the feds decided that US companies couldn't operate an e-mail system in Canada.

However, the government has had to answer questions from American trade officials, and sought internal legal advice when it decided to invoke a national security exemption for the bid process. Invoking that requirement meant locking out international companies from the competition.

“The national security exemption was invoked around information sovereignty,” Ambrose said in an interview, meaning that government data would stay on servers within Canada.


Now Verizon. a US company, which is a known abuser of privacy under US law, and which is also require by US law to hand the US government anything it asks for about subscribers irrespective of where it is located on its network (voice/data/wireless/etc...) wants to take over one or two wireless operators in Canada.

How long do you think it will be before Verizon (or another American company which might acquire Wind/Mobilicity) ships all the call metadata for all domestic Canadian or Canada-international calls it gets its hands on down to the NSA?

How long before the billing system gets moved to the US - which requires the metadata for billing? How long before calls are recorded?

How long before US CBP asks Canadians when you cross the border, "Can you explain the nature of the 3 calls you made to the Cuban embassy in Ottawa on March 5th, 8th, and 12th in 2014? Whom did you speak with, and about what?" or "You say your citizenship is Canadian and your last name is 'Snowden'? Let's see who you've been speaking with lately. Hmmm, calls to Hawaii & Ecuador..... Pull over and step out of the car."

DanteX

join:2010-09-09
kudos:1
reply to Gone
Well what if Verizon were to enter the Internet market as well then that would b a different story. Verizon Fios would be a change around these parts.


corster
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Gatineau, QC
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

My point is, that the Feds would have to change their rules again, if Wind got bigger then 10%. We can't have foreigners owning our Telecom companies

The rules do not require a foreign owner to divest a company if they hold more than 10% of the market.

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4
reply to DanteX
said by DanteX:

Well what if Verizon were to enter the Internet market as well then that would b a different story. Verizon Fios would be a change around these parts.

Verizon refuses to expand FiOS in its home country, so having them overbuild in Canadian territory is beyond wishful thinking.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
reply to bt
Well,

I have a Verizon north american plan and when I travel into Canada (all the time) the price doubles. If you look at concentration of metros many of them are on the border of the US so for minor retooling and investment they could extend the network into Canada and now for Canadians/US cross travel could be harmonized at much lower cost. This can only benefit both sides.

As to gouging: My VZ north america plan cost $99 ($79 after corp discount) which gives me 1200 off network minutes (VZ M2M is free) and 2 GB of data and unlimited texting and I can roam in Canada freely and call to Canada with no extra charge (while in Canada OR the US). I don't think that is ridiculous. If you wanted to use a Verizon MVNO you could get unlimted call/text 2GB for $55 all in.

You guys have vertically integrated media companies just like the US has, and once they do that, they raise prices across the board. I would love another US cell player to come to town, but the MVNO in the US offer choice and great price....

Also the handsets would have better compatibility w/ the larger US market.

Also, on the ownership perspective:

1. Verizon is a joint venture between verizon and vodafone (UK)(, so its really split on ownership
2. Tmobile is "owned" by DT which is German.
3. Sprint is about to be acquired by Japanese SoftBank.
4. AT&T is the only primarily US owned company.

Foreign investment and ownership is considered mutually beneficial. I never got the we must own the beans mentality from Canadians. I mean my last car was built in Brampton. My Honda built in Ohio. I didn't go native over that...

GLOBAL economy is good for all...

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
said by elefante72:

Well,

I have a Verizon north american plan and when I travel into Canada (all the time) the price doubles. If you look at concentration of metros many of them are on the border of the US so for minor retooling and investment they could extend the network into Canada and now for Canadians/US cross travel could be harmonized at much lower cost. This can only benefit both sides.

The current VZW and Wind networks are incompatible. Both spectrum and technology wise, so there is no easy fix. Future LTE deployments might make that possible, but it might also require getting some 700MHz spectrum in the upcoming auction.

But for the moment? Not possible.

said by elefante72:

Foreign investment and ownership is considered mutually beneficial. I never got the we must own the beans mentality from Canadians. I mean my last car was built in Brampton. My Honda built in Ohio. I didn't go native over that...

GLOBAL economy is good for all...

My issue isn't with foreign ownership. My issue is I don't think Verizon specifically would bring any real improvement to the competitive landscape. They wouldn't jack the prices right away, but I've got no reason to believe it wouldn't slide them in that direction over time.

yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4
reply to elefante72
said by elefante72:

Foreign investment and ownership is considered mutually beneficial. I never got the we must own the beans mentality from Canadians. I mean my last car was built in Brampton. My Honda built in Ohio. I didn't go native over that...

GLOBAL economy is good for all...

I don't think most Canadians care if a foreign company wants to come in and create a 4th national carrier that offers good value. The problem with Verizon, is that based on their activities in the US, most of us are skeptical that they're going to provide the value that Canadians have been longing for. You may have a great plan, but if you look at their in market offerings now they're more expensive then our Canadian counterparts.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to elefante72
said by elefante72:

As to gouging: My VZ north america plan cost $99 ($79 after corp discount) which gives me 1200 off network minutes (VZ M2M is free) and 2 GB of data and unlimited texting and I can roam in Canada freely and call to Canada with no extra charge (while in Canada OR the US). I don't think that is ridiculous. If you wanted to use a Verizon MVNO you could get unlimted call/text 2GB for $55 all in.

There are plenty of people a few miles away from you on the Canadian side of the Niagara River who have those Verizon plans because it is cheaper for them to do it that way than to pay for roaming when they're in the US.

Roaming is bloody murder. I have a T-Mobile prepaid account I use whenever I'm over on the US side of the river for more than an hour. I have North American long distance included on my plan, so call forwarding to the TMo number is free.

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
reply to bt
Verizon owns AWS LTE spectrum (band 4) in addition to band 13 (700), and that is what they would deploy in Canada, so yes it would require a retool and move from GSM, but not what they would have to spend anyways and they could always deploy in VoLTE to handle the coverage. So this would be a perfect match. For instance already Samsung S4, BBQ10, Lumia support those bands and could be used day 1. And of course there is the upcoming 700mhz auction next Jan. Things could get interesting...

They already have roaming agreements in place for CDMA w/ Rogers so they could just keep that relationship.

As to pricing, well collusion is the name of the game, so it will boil down to features and what makes sense to you. They are not going to come in and offer $60 all you can eat plans.

On the competitive front, how can it hurt to have more competition. If their prices are not competitive, then don't sign up. As it's seen by the startups it that it takes massive cash to build a network, and only major players have the financing. So they run out of gas and have to sell.

While if you never left Canada it may not be advantageous, travelling into the states would then be seamless and if roaming in NA holy crap that would save everyone money. I live in the Buffalo region, and when I travel in the airport (BUF) more than half of the people are Canadian. If I had a dollar for every conversation I heard about "turn off your data", or "dont use your phone unless the earth is on fire", or "text only" I would be rich. Either that or how to score a TMO SIM.

In fact I keep a PPC (verizon) burner cellular phone for all my Canadian relatives for when they visit, I hand them a phone so we can communicate for 6c a minute versus $1.20. My sis in law from BC I warned her NOT to use her iphone in the US and when she came back to a $300 bill for 1 week, and I had her using wifi as much as possible. She had used less that 100 MB....


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to devcore
How do you deploy spectrum you bought in the US into Canada?


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by elwoodblues:

How do you deploy spectrum you bought in the US into Canada?

You aim antennas?

I think he meant that if they bought Wind, they would begin to deploy LTE on AWS in the US in addition to 700, and then use AWS in Canada to form one "seamless" network even though you're dealing with two countries and two different sets of licenses.

I find it interesting that the Americans don't have any LTE running on BRS/IMT-E like we do here. Rogers seems to be really gung-ho about it.

julienvf

join:2008-12-30
Verdun, QC
kudos:1
reply to devcore
So far, all big 3's stocks are down from 4 to 10%! Looks like investors think it's the end of the party for the big 3..

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
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reply to elefante72

Also, on the ownership perspective:

1. Verizon is a joint venture between verizon and vodafone (UK)(, so its really split on ownership
2. Tmobile is "owned" by DT which is German.
3. Sprint is about to be acquired by Japanese SoftBank.
4. AT&T is the only primarily US owned company.

I'd be waaay happier if a German, Japanese, South Korean, Spanish, or Singaporean telco was buying Wind. Most of these countries have some inkling of 'privacy'.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to elefante72
said by elefante72:

They already have roaming agreements in place for CDMA w/ Rogers so they could just keep that relationship.

That could change in a relative heartbeat.

monsoon66

join:2007-01-13
Toronto, ON
reply to devcore
Verizon seems to have interest in both Wind and Mobilicity so I'm guessing they will get their hands on both if they do enter Canada.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to Gone
You have an unlocked phone, how many non technical folks can even fathom what locked is.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to Gone
It aint gonna reach Tbay or even Barrier.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:

You have an unlocked phone, how many non technical folks can even fathom what locked is.

People who spend time in the US learn what "unlocked" means pretty damn quick.


BGB
Wants moar interwebz
Premium
join:2009-07-09
Waterloo, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to elefante72
said by elefante72:

They already have roaming agreements in place for CDMA w/ Rogers so they could just keep that relationship.

Uh... When did Rogers set up a CDMA network?