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openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2
reply to Kamus

Re: Glad not ready til 2015

Obsolete?

Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX
said by openbox9:

Obsolete?

Yes. Fiber has made it obsolete and it's not a recent event either.

openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Oh, ok. So since a medium isn't a thin string of plastic encased in a heavier plastic cladding, it's obsolete? What about the millions of miles of viable coax strung across the US that has a very real bandwidth capacity capable of serving real customers for the foreseeable future? It isn't obsolete. Will it be someday? Likely. Is it now? No.

tanzam75

join:2012-07-19

1 edit
said by openbox9:

Oh, ok. So since a medium isn't a thin string of plastic encased in a heavier plastic cladding, it's obsolete? What about the millions of miles of viable coax strung across the US that has a very real bandwidth capacity capable of serving real customers for the foreseeable future? It isn't obsolete. Will it be someday? Likely. Is it now? No.

The fiber that ISPs are installing is glass-cored.

There is such a thing as plastic optical fiber (POF), but it is currently stuck in niche applications. The problem is that POF has attenuation of 20-40 dB/km, vs. under 1 dB/km for glass. This makes POF usable only for short-distance usage, as an Ethernet replacement.

Coax still has several years of headroom left. Until they hit the bandwidth wall, the cablecos will have a capex advantage over any FTTP competitor. After that point, everyone is on an equal footing.

Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

1 edit
reply to openbox9
said by openbox9:

Oh, ok. So since a medium isn't a thin string of plastic encased in a heavier plastic cladding, it's obsolete? What about the millions of miles of viable coax strung across the US that has a very real bandwidth capacity capable of serving real customers for the foreseeable future? It isn't obsolete. Will it be someday? Likely. Is it now? No.

I think you are confused... You are making arguments that don't change the fact that it's obsolete technology. You can make arguments all day in favor of copper. It still won't change the fact that those copper infrastructures were deployed with very different purposes in mind than internet access, many decades ago.

When it comes to data, copper has been obsolete for a lot more than just a decade. When was the last time you saw any long haul deployed with copper?

So yes, you can make valid arguments why cable companies and DSL providers will never, ever deploy fiber. But it still doesn't change the fact that copper is an obsolete technology.

Just in case you are still confused on what obsolete actually means. This is right out from wikipedia:

"Technical obsolescence usually occurs when a new product or technology supersedes the old, and it becomes preferred to use the new technology in place of the old, even if the old product is still functional."

So there you have it... just because DSL and cable still sell their old product. It doesn't change the fact that fiber can offer performance that is orders of magnitude higher for about the same price (if you were to start a new build from scratch)

openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2
I think you don't understand the definition and meaning of obsolete.

said by Kamus:

So yes, you can make valid arguments why cable companies and DSL providers will never, ever deploy fiber.

I've never made that argument, nor will I.

said by Kamus:

Just in case you are still confused on what obsolete actually means.

And just so you have a real definition, here's one from Merriam-Webster:
said by Merriam-Webster :

1 a: no longer in use or no longer useful (an obsolete word)
b: of a kind or style no longer current: old-fashioned (an obsolete technology)

I'll argue all day long that coax is still useful and very much a medium useful with current technology. You could've used several other words and I wouldn't have challenged your assessment, but I'll argue obsolescence.

said by Kamus:

just because DSL and cable still sell their old product. It doesn't change the fact that fiber can offer performance that is orders of magnitude higher

I've never argued otherwise, but that definitely doesn't make coax obsolete.

Bengie25

join:2010-04-22
Wisconsin Rapids, WI
Reviews:
·Solarus
reply to tanzam75
said by tanzam75:

said by openbox9:

Oh, ok. So since a medium isn't a thin string of plastic encased in a heavier plastic cladding, it's obsolete? What about the millions of miles of viable coax strung across the US that has a very real bandwidth capacity capable of serving real customers for the foreseeable future? It isn't obsolete. Will it be someday? Likely. Is it now? No.

The fiber that ISPs are installing is glass-cored.

There is such a thing as plastic optical fiber (POF), but it is currently stuck in niche applications. The problem is that POF has attenuation of 20-40 dB/km, vs. under 1 dB/km for glass. This makes POF usable only for short-distance usage, as an Ethernet replacement.

Coax still has several years of headroom left. Until they hit the bandwidth wall, the cablecos will have a capex advantage over any FTTP competitor. After that point, everyone is on an equal footing.

In the lab, they can get COAX up to 10Gb over a few miles. In the lab, they can get fiber at almost 1Tb over 800 miles and well over 1Tb in the sub 2mile range(for cheap to). By cheap, I mean upwards of 12Tb/s fiber that is cheap enough to integrate into your cell-phone and has upwards of 2Km range. IBM is working with many companies to start using this new tech.

The difference between me getting 10Gb fiber and you getting 10Gb cable is I get all 10Gb to myself between me and my ISP, you have to share.

tanzam75

join:2012-07-19
said by Bengie25:

In the lab, they can get COAX up to 10Gb over a few miles. In the lab, they can get fiber at almost 1Tb over 800 miles and well over 1Tb in the sub 2mile range(for cheap to). By cheap, I mean upwards of 12Tb/s fiber that is cheap enough to integrate into your cell-phone and has upwards of 2Km range. IBM is working with many companies to start using this new tech.

The difference between me getting 10Gb fiber and you getting 10Gb cable is I get all 10Gb to myself between me and my ISP, you have to share.

If money were no object, then of course, you go for the best technology available.

The problem with FTTP is that the bonds start accruing interest immediately, whereas you start out with a take rate of 0% and have to work for years to get it up to the targeted value. That's why Verizon stopped their FiOS deployments and concentrated on improving take rate. If they already spent the money, it's a sunk cost. But if they haven't deployed fiber, it's just not worth it to spend the money.

Whereas the cablecos have the ability to upgrade incrementally until they hit that 10 Gbps barrier. The cablecos haven't even hit the 10 Gbps limit for a 250-household node -- much less 10 Gbps per household. So, the cablecos have many years of runway left.

Eventually, of course, they run out of bandwidth and will have no choice but to deploy fiber. But the key is that they do not incur the capital costs of a fiber deployment until they actually need it.