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Pirate515
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY
reply to Liberty

Re: 10 years of National Do Not Call: Looking back and ahead...

As opposed to blacklist, does Ooma have a whitelist? Someone else was describing this in another thread and I really loved the idea, although I forgot the company that does it. Here's how it goes.

•When you sign up, you set up a white list with numbers from family friends, and anyone else you do wish to receive calls from
•The calls from white list automatically go straight through
•Everyone else gets a recording of "Press 1 to connect" or something of that sort. That should get rid of most robocalls and auto dialers.
--
Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies.
A MESSAGE to the RIAA and the MPAA: You shouldn't wound what you can't kill.
If the opposite of pro is con, then the opposite of progress is Congress.


Liberty

join:2005-06-12
Tucson, AZ
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to antdude

Something I used to do before the robo calls made me wait too long before you can punch the key to get a human, I would sound real interested and they needed to talk to my boss to ok the deal

I would give them the number for my 'boss' - the number for Az state attorney general and have them ask for Terry (the AG)



siljaline
I'm lovin' that double wide
Premium
join:2002-10-12
Montreal, QC
kudos:17
reply to jadinolf

We try to be and when those that know how to use the DNCL rules call and report those that have broken them.



jadinolf
I Love You Fred
Premium
join:2005-07-09
Ojai, CA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME

1 recommendation

said by siljaline:

We try to be and when those that know how to use the DNCL rules call and report those that have broken them.

Here they don't go by the rules.

Makes a difference.
--
Printed on 100% recycled bytes

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to spyknee

said by spyknee:

Applied to do not call, its useless.
I cannot pick up my phone without it being a telemarketer on other end. I tell them to stop calling, they refuse to stop.
My phone machine message is directed at telemarketers, they still call.
This is a direct result of unchecked, unregulated capitalism, a cancer.

It is regulated capitalism. But not for you or me... It's regulated in favor of corporations (telemarketers). How? It's easy to see:

1. To protect yourself from annoying telemarketers you have to pay money for "Caller ID" service (when last time I paid, it was extra $10/m for the line). Without subscription to the Caller ID service - you're completely opened to marketing abuse. With Caller ID service in place I watch incoming caller number and don't pick up phone from unknown sources. They went to the voicemail and usually left me alone (BTW, I pay for the duration of those small calls anyway, making money my phone company and, perhaps, indirectly to telemarketers, helping make money my phone company).

2. Even if I, residential customer, pay money for getting "Caller ID" service, I don't have right to get correct number of my caller. Thanks to FCC and its regulations in favor of marketing businesses. FCC has specifically stated that I can't get ANI (the real number of my caller), and only can get number, that could be easily faked or blocked - specifically designed "Caller ID"...

Of course everything they (FCC) do, they present as it's been done "for better customer experience". In this case people were tricked by the ability to block their own caller ID number, when they make outbound calls. But in reality:
1. Call centers (including those who usually run predictive dialing to place those unsolicited calls) get ANI from you (as it's explained - for billing purposes)
2. And ANI could not be blocked or faked, remember?
3. The whole "blocking caller ID" service is a funky business, created by FCC to trick common users and put regulations in behalf of telemarketing businesses. If you think about it seriously, there is no actual value in calling someone and trying to hide from him who is calling. You will have to talk to callee and he/she will know that anyway (or call will be just dropped). Again, there is no actual value in "blocking caller ID" service. But it was used by FCC as a disguise to remove passing actual caller ID (ANI) to residential customers in order to favor telemarketers, trying to trick you to pick up your phone...

There is a solution to bypass the tricky FCC regulation. Pretend that you're a business and get a 800 number. It will cost you a bit more, but you'll get real ANI (not residential "Caller ID"). Then you may protect yourself from those unsolicited funky calls with empty caller ID trying to sell you pills, get a loan, or other similar marketing trash...

Regarding to DNC, The past several years I'm getting less unsolicited calls. But I'm not confident that it's because I registered phone in DNC. It could well be because I don't pick incoming calls form unknown numbers (as I've mentioned earlier).
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
kudos:7
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to antdude

said by antdude:

Is it working for you? :P

It is somewhat working.

It allows me to immediately hangup, without feeling that I am being rude, as soon as I recognize that this is a law-violating telemarketing call.
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 12.3; firefox 21.0


rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to Dontcall

Maybe the easiest thing would be to not answer the phone at all but let an answering machine or voice mail respond. Even without CallerID, that would still work. Either the caller will leave a message or the caller doesn't care. If you can hear the caller you can always pick up the line (assuming you are using an answering machine). CallerID is a nice feature, but to pay as much as basic lifeline service just to have it could be a deal-breaker. It really should be included as standard in the way that tone-dialing, which once cost extra, is now standard.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to OZO

said by OZO:

There is a solution to bypass the tricky FCC regulation. Pretend that you're a business and get a 800 number. It will cost you a bit more, but you'll get real ANI (not residential "Caller ID").

That is only partially correct. If you do get a 1-800 number (or a cheaper local toll-free number) you will indeed get ANI from any caller that dials that toll-free number. However the phone line will still have a regular (non toll-free) number associated with it and any calls made to that regular number (such as the robo-calling telemarketer menace) will not have ANI.
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire!

towerdave

join:2002-01-16
O Fallon, IL
reply to antdude

We are back up to 5-6 calls per week. Some are "charities." Around election season the political calls are nuts. But many are businesses clearly in violation of the law. However, as has been previously stated, you can't really report them because you don't have enough info.

I will say that when I've asked most places to remove me from their lists, they haven't called again.

I actually had one guy, when told that I was on the DNC list, say "Let's not worry about that right now." LOL

TD



Cthen

join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI
Reviews:
·Verizon Wireless..
reply to dave

Re:  

said by dave:

said by Dude111:

They just target those on the list more

Yeah, because the absolute best telemarketing targets are those people who have already declared that they don't want to talk to you.

The reason people on the list get called is because it's autodiallers doing the calling, and they just dial every number in turn.

Don't forget that just about every person that gets called who is on the DNC list, ended up giving out their number to these companies after signing up in one fashion or another.

Kind of similar to this thread but not always...
»Download me-Saying "yes" to Web's dangerous search terms...

Sometimes they also gave it to a local business who sold their info, gave out a number to some cool new app for their smart phone, their number is on their facebook profile, etc...
--
"I like to refer to myself as an Adult Film Efficienato." - Stuart Bondek


Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable

1 recommendation

reply to OZO

Re: 10 years of National Do Not Call: Looking back and ahead...

said by OZO:

There is a solution to bypass the tricky FCC regulation. Pretend that you're a business and get a 800 number. It will cost you a bit more, but you'll get real ANI (not residential "Caller ID").

There are workarounds to capturing an ANI via the use of an 800# that doesn't require any level of dishonesty by the home user.

The easiest workaround doesn't even carry the cost of maintaining an 800#.
e.g., there are services that will allow you to forward incoming calls to your phone number to their 800# which will automatically forward the call back to your number, in the process capturing the ANI of the caller.


hortnut
Huh?

join:2005-09-25
PNW
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to antdude

Not sure if DNC works for all, as have put my folks on it many times. But think they sabotaged it by answering the phone or playing with the callers.

I understand that what one does with a phone call increases it value, as many callers not only make money on what they sell or get as donation, they resell their "lists" to other undesirables.

hang up when realize its telemarketer/charity/other undesirable caller - worth almost nothing
Answer the phone - worth $x
Talk with them - worth $y
Make a Pledge - worth $z
Buy or give $$ - worth much more

Once I got this concept through to my folks, the calls are down to almost 0 in a day, other than friends/others they like to talk to.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to rcdailey

said by rcdailey:

It really should be included as standard in the way that tone-dialing, which once cost extra, is now standard.

Tone dialing is still extra in Hawaii at $3.50 a month.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to OZO

said by OZO:

There is a solution to bypass the tricky FCC regulation. Pretend that you're a business and get a 800 number. It will cost you a bit more, but you'll get real ANI (not residential "Caller ID"). Then you may protect yourself from those unsolicited funky calls with empty caller ID trying to sell you pills, get a loan, or other similar marketing trash...

It looks like I was not alone when it comes to that idea. Making a brief research on Caller ID vs ANI, I've found others describing it too: How to Set a Cell Phone to Use ANI @eHow.

To protect themselves from ubiquitous telemarketers, facilitated by FCC rules, people need to have access to the real caller ID numbers, delivered in form of ANI rather than in form of unreliable "Caller ID" data, pushed on us by FCC.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable

said by OZO:

It looks like I was not alone when it comes to that idea.

It looks like you might be alone in implementing that as a way to identify violators of the DNCL though.

"6. Give friends and associates the new ANI toll-free number. Instruct people to dial the ANI toll-free number instead of your old cell phone telephone number. When people dial the ANI toll-free number, caller information displays on the cell phone screen even if the caller disables caller ID."

Illicit telephone solicitors don't call 800#'s specifically because of the ANI capture so I'm not sure how well this will work.

As far as it identifying the ANI of friends & associates that you've giving this number to the purpose evades me, not to mention that there's nothing stopping said friend or associate from defeating the routing by simply calling your number directly.


Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to dave

Re:  

said by dave:

said by Dude111:

They just target those on the list more

Yeah, because the absolute best telemarketing targets are those people who have already declared that they don't want to talk to you.

The reason people on the list get called is because it's autodiallers doing the calling, and they just dial every number in turn.

Prior to signing up for the DNC list a few years ago, we never received any calls from a particular cluster of obnoxious outfits. However, within a couple months of going on that list, we began to be bombarded by robo calls from Cardholder Services (originally a gal claiming to be "Rachel") - sometimes once every couple weeks, other times several times per day. Incoming caller-ID always carries a spoofed/hijacked number that turns out to be unrelated to the hucksters, and varies with each incoming call. About 18 months ago, the range of pitches suddenly expanded to include medical supplemental cost-recovery and various debt-consolidation schemes. The new robo announcements are virtually identical to the Cardholder Services original script, along with even the proffered phone-tree options and selection numbers.

From what I've found on a variety of websites describing these particular offenders, the scammers use VOIP originating from overseas and are somehow able to obfuscate and spoof those originating numbers; and it appears they are seeding their call lists using the published DNC numbers since those are actually known-good phone numbers. There are apparently quite a number of hired/contracted operators that are using these same autodialers, so the DNC lists (and the numbers) get used over and over and over.

A personal verification of this has come about via the cell-phone DNC list that was later initiated by the government. We listed three phone numbers, but not two others. Within two months, the three DNC-listed cell phones all began getting the exact same kinds of robo calls as the landline phone, but neither of the other cell phones that aren't DNC listed has ever received a robo-call.

Given the overseas origin of the perps and the use of virtually-untraceable VOIP methods and faked originating numbers, there seems to be no effective way to shut them down. Their object apparently is to obtain a credit card or account number from their target and abuse it before the target realizes what's really going on. And, just like the recurring Nigerian eMails, they can auto-spray this stuff out over and over to the same hit list in the hopes that even a minute percentage might respond... and because its virtually all automated until one does actually respond in some way, any cost of re-hitting a by-now-angry rejecting target is virtually zero.

The DNC list has turned out to be a mixed blessing. The ordinary marketer cold-calls we used to get have dropped off to virtually zero... but the VOIP scam-calls have replaced about half of the original number of those old calls.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Snowy

Re: 10 years of National Do Not Call: Looking back and ahead...

said by Snowy:

Illicit telephone solicitors don't call 800#'s specifically because of the ANI capture so I'm not sure how well this will work.

I don't mind that those illicit telephone solicitors won't call my 800# for the reason mentioned. Thus, it will work well for me too .

As far as it identifying the ANI of friends & associates that you've giving this number to the purpose evades me, not to mention that there's nothing stopping said friend or associate from defeating the routing by simply calling your number directly.

Close friends and family may call that cell phone directly. I don't see why I have to prohibit them from doing so. They're not the problem. The problem is created by annoying telemarketers. And publishing that 800# (in case when you need to do so, e.g. when you apply for a bank account, loan, etc) adds some protection from vast majority of unwanted solicitations...

BTW, in my first post I was talking about 800# as a direct line, not as a transfer point to a cell phone for incoming calls, as it was specifically mentioned in the article @eHow. But it's not important. What is important is to see and recognize why the necessity of National DNC list is here in the first place, where is the root of the problem and how to stop ubiquitous and very annoying telemarketing. In essence my proposal (see my first post) was to get rid of FCC rulings, favoring telemarketing business (or bypass it can't be solved legally), and provide residential phone users with reliable ID of those who call them. No "Caller ID" with blocking, or faking, or any other gimmicks...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Blackbird

Re:  

Hmm. Maybe this is a new development; it certainly was not true before. Perhaps voip is the game-changer as you suggest.

Despite being on the MA and then federal no-call lists since inception, I myself only started to hear from 'Cardmember Services' in the past 6 months - not that I ever spoke to them, but this was one of the very few scamscum that actually left a message.

(They have since gone away. Perhaps one time I picked up and let them know that I had enough google-fu to read all about 'Cardmember Services'. I forget,)

The phone companies, like all good arms dealers, play both sides of this. They sell the ability to set the 'calling id' to anything you want.


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Blackbird

said by Blackbird:

Prior to signing up for the DNC list a few years ago, we never received any calls from a particular cluster of obnoxious outfits. However, within a couple months of going on that list, we began to be bombarded by robo calls from Cardholder Services (originally a gal claiming to be "Rachel") - sometimes once every couple weeks, other times several times per day. Incoming caller-ID always carries a spoofed/hijacked number that turns out to be unrelated to the hucksters, and varies with each incoming call.

There is no strong evidence that DNC list works at all (and posts in this thread just prove that point). It could be very well part of a new game. It changed some rules, but on the other hand it may facilitate more effective telemarketing business as well. Instead of phone scanning, required earlier, now they have access to well documented list of those important to its users phone numbers...

The DNC list has turned out to be a mixed blessing.

Exactly... It could be just a trick, working in accord with the fancy "blocking Caller ID convenience", offered and enforced by FCC with its rules...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


dandelion
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-29
Germantown, TN
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to antdude

Re: 10 years of National Do Not Call: Looking back and ahead...

It amazes me how these companies that pay telemarketers stay in business.. people actually answer and buy? I don't really need to know the exact number of who calls though...I only answer numbers I recognize. If I miss someone here and there they leave a message and I call back. If they don't leave a message, they really didn't want to talk to me that much.

I had pretty high hopes for this DNC and yes, it has worked to some extent but I am still not pleased by the calls that DO come.. this includes political and people I wish I hadn't done business with. I have given out my phone number less and less and only when necessary.

I agree with some that think more should be done.
--
Spare computer cycles can help find answers
Find A Cure!


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit

Yeah, agreed. Our strategy is multipronged:

1. Anonymous caller rejection by phone co.
2. If we know the number, or the name looks like a person, we'll pick up immediately.
3. Number unavailable, or no name with number, then it goes to the answering machine.
3a. If we're home and we hear someone that sounds like a non-salesman, we'll pick up.
3b. If we're not home and a non-salesman leaves a message, we'll call back.
3c. No message? There is no hope we will talk to you ever.

FCC should mandate unforgeable source id (or no id at all - but never an ersatz id) gets sent with all calls. Owner of phone can opt out of requirement (i.e., is prepared to accept incoming anonymous calls - this fixes the "abuse reporting hotline" problem where there are valid reasons for anonymous sources).

But as long as there is the myth that telemarketers provide any benefir at all - that is, that a telemarketing company is other than a floating turd in a toilet bowl - we won't get that.

No politicial/charitable exceptions either.



Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable
reply to OZO

said by OZO:

Close friends and family may call that cell phone directly. I don't see why I have to prohibit them from doing so.

I have no idea why someone would do that either.
I was just quoting your how-to source
"6. Give friends and associates the new ANI toll-free number. Instruct people to dial the ANI toll-free number instead of your old cell phone telephone number. When people dial the ANI toll-free number, caller information displays on the cell phone screen even if the caller disables caller ID."

said by OZO:

They're not the problem. The problem is created by annoying telemarketers. And publishing that 800# (in case when you need to do so, e.g. when you apply for a bank account, loan, etc) adds some protection from vast majority of unwanted solicitations...

OK, so the purchase an 800# workaround is primarily intended to thwart illicit phone solicitors that scrape or purchase banks etc... phone lists?
Maybe it's just me but I'd look at changing banks etc...

What this doesn't do though is offer any relief to the majority of phone solicitations a person is likely to receive which is the consecutive dialing of an exchange xxx-0001 - xxx-9999


newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD
kudos:1

2 recommendations

reply to antdude

I've been on the Do-Not-Call list from the first day it was available.
It's working for me in that I KNOW that every telemarketer that is calling me is a damn criminal ... just from the fact that they called me in the first place.



nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
kudos:7
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by newview:

It's working for me in that I KNOW that every telemarketer that is calling me is a damn criminal ... just from the fact that they called me in the first place.

Yes, that's how I use it.
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 12.3; firefox 21.0


Snowy
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable

said by nwrickert:

said by newview:

It's working for me in that I KNOW that every telemarketer that is calling me is a damn criminal ... just from the fact that they called me in the first place.

Yes, that's how I use it.

+2
Being a part of an older generation when phone courtesy mattered the DNCL makes it much easier to just hang up.

tkdslr

join:2004-04-24
Pompano Beach, FL
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Speakeasy
reply to Pirate515

After I dumped my land line... I transitioned to a white list approach(since caller id is std with cellphones).. Only answering calls from numbers in my white list.. all others check internet first before returning call.

I now only give out my google voice # to strangers.. When I don't answer, it drops into voice/txt mail and the message is text'd to my android phone.


Ravenheart

join:2006-02-10
Berkeley, CA

1 recommendation

reply to Rocky67

said by Rocky67:

BTW, does anybody know the reason that most of these calls seem to have nobody on the line when answered and never leave a message. I no longer answer my land line and use the features of my VOIP to block as many of the numbers as possible.

I was puzzled by calls like this with no one at the other end but pass on a link someone on my ISP's forum (the ISP offers phone service as well as DSL) offered. It says, among other things, that the call could be a probe gathering info for a targeted calling campaign:

»www.callhunter.com/guides/roboca···ot-speak

Caller ID and my provider's willingness to act on complaints to block known robocallers has helped.