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real_goose

join:2001-04-13
Apollo Beach, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·callwithus
·voip.ms

Is Verizon FiOS TV cable TV?

Does Verizon label FiOS TV as "cable TV" in any documentation? I find cases where they compare themselves to cable TV, but they always seem to call their service FiOS TV.

I am considering the install of an outdoor TV antenna in a Florida community with an HOA that enforces covenants and architectural reviews of any addition. FCC rules allow me the right to install a TV antenna to receive local TV as long as I can't receive those stations on cable TV.

»nofars.net/associations.html says:
According to 47 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Section 1.4000, a television antenna "that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals" is guaranteed regardless of any local laws or private land use restrictions. Limitations exist, though. If one subscribes to cable TV service, this guarantee may not apply. But, if cable service is available and a home owner or resident chooses not to subscribe--47 C.F.R. 1.4000 seems to protect a resident's right to erect an outdoor television antenna--dish, Yagi, etc.

So if FiOS TV is not cable TV, my HOA should not be able to insist I can not put up an antenna because I subscribe to FiOS.

PJL

join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
I think the cite you indicate is too narrow and that the actual FCC regulations give you broader rights to install an antenna or satellite dish, specifically that is has nothing to do with cable TV subscriptions. Search Bing for "FCC homeowner association limitation on antennas" and you'll get lots of help. Here is one article:

The Federal Communications Commission
In the Telecommunications Act of 1996, Congress directed the FCC to adopt the Over-the-Air Reception Devices rule regarding restrictions on consumers' ability to receive television broadcasts using aerial antennas and satellite dishes. This rule prohibits government and non-goverment restrictions on the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming. The rule applies to TV antennas, satellite dishes that are less than one meter across and wireless cable antennas. This rule prohibits restrictions that cause unreasonable installation delays, increased costs or degraded signal reception.

Exceptions to Every Rule
Restrictions to the FCC ruling are allowed under certain circumstances -- in manners of safety, to preserve an historic district or where the applied restrictions cause no more burden to the homeowner than standard installation. In these cases, the restrictions must be non-discriminating and apply to all items of similar size, weight and appearance to the antennas.

Challenging a Restriction
In the event the homeowner believes the restrictions being applied are invalid under the FCC ruling and an agreement cannot be reached with the restricting authority, a petition may be filed with the FCC or a local court with proper jurisdiction. Frequently, requesting clarification on the ruling as it applies to your individual situation may help resolve the problem. If a mutual agreement cannot be reached, either party may file a petition, but the burden of proof lies with the group making the limitations to show that they do not violate the FCC ruling. The homeowner may continue to use their antenna -- except in cases citing safety concerns or historic preservation -- and no fines or penalties may be accrued while the petition is pending resolution.

The Rule Gains Scope
In 1999, the FCC expanded the rule so that it also applies to renters that have an exclusive use area, such as a balcony or patio. The ruling was updated further in 2000 to include antennas that send and receive a fixed wireless signal, such as Internet or telephone service.

real_goose

join:2001-04-13
Apollo Beach, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·callwithus
·voip.ms
The FCC specifically does allow antenna restrictions based on the availability of alternate services which always seem to be called central antenna and cable TV. The easiest to cite is from the FCC guides:
»www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-rece···ces-rule

Q: If my association, building management, landlord, or property owner provides a central antenna, may I install an individual antenna?

A: Generally, the availability of a central antenna may allow the association, landlord, property owner, or other management entity to restrict the installation by individuals of antennas otherwise protected by the rule. Restrictions based on the availability of a central antenna will generally be permissible provided that: (1) the person receives the particular video programming or fixed wireless service that the person desires and could receive with an individual antenna covered under the rule (e.g., the person would be entitled to receive service from a specific provider, not simply a provider selected by the association); (2) the signal quality of transmission to and from the person's home using the central antenna is as good as, or better than, the quality the person could receive or transmit with an individual antenna covered by the rule; (3) the costs associated with the use of the central antenna are not greater than the costs of installation, maintenance and use of an individual antenna covered under the rule; and (4) the requirement to use the central antenna instead of an individual antenna does not unreasonably delay the viewer's ability to receive video programming or fixed wireless services.

UnnDunn
Premium
join:2005-12-21
Brooklyn, NY

1 edit
reply to real_goose
You should assume that Verizon FiOS TV fits whatever legal standard there is for a "cable TV service". Verizon obtains municipal cable TV franchises to operate FiOS TV wherever necessary. It wouldn't do that if it wasn't a "cable TV service."

That said, I don't think that distinction applies here. Rather, the issue you should be looking at is whether the "central antenna" is provided by the HOA or not; in the FCC FAQ, the "central antenna" exception to the antenna rule only applies if the HOA provides the "central antenna" themselves.

Q: If my association, building management, landlord, or property owner provides a central antenna, may I install an individual antenna?

A: Generally, the availability of a central antenna may allow the association, landlord, property owner, or other management entity to restrict the installation by individuals of antennas otherwise protected by the rule.
(emphasis mine)

FiOS is provided by Verizon and the local municipality, not by your HOA. So its availability shouldn't affect the FCC antenna rule in any way.

At least, that's my reading of it. IANAL. You should probably call the FCC and get the answer straight from them; the number is 888-CALL-FCC.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:4
reply to real_goose
According to the FCC in regards to the emergency alert system, Verizon FiOS and AT&T U-Verse are classified as a wireline video service provider and not a cable video service provider.
--
I'm always up for a good chat and helping with tech problems.

real_goose

join:2001-04-13
Apollo Beach, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
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Thanks for the information. It led me to more searching for FCC classifications. I found that the FCC does indeed call FiOS a cable company in some situations.

This is a Notice of Violation (Notice) issued pursuant to Section 1.89 of the Commission’s rules,1 to Verizon Florida LLC dba Verizon FIOS (Verizon), operator of a cable system in Hillsborough County, Florida.
»www.fcc.gov/document/verizon-flo···ounty-fl


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:4
oh cool.


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
reply to real_goose
Sounds like you currently subscribe to Verizon FiOS-TV service.
Why is it that you wish to install an outdoor TV antenna?
1) Is there a local station not carried by the service?
2) Are you wanting to terminate your Verizon FiOS-TV service subscription?
3) Other?

If there is even one local station not carried by Verizon FiOS-TV service that you can get with an outdoor TV antenna over the air then I would think none of the other scenarios would matter.

This uninformed opinion is worth less than you paid for it and is not to be relied on for making any decision or taking any action.

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Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:4
Just for the sake of it being said, I hope it's known that if an antenna is used, it wont be compatible with any set top box or DVR so there would be no guide data or recording capabilities.
--
I'm always up for a good chat and helping with tech problems.

real_goose

join:2001-04-13
Apollo Beach, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
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·voip.ms
said by Mike Wolf:

Just for the sake of it being said, I hope it's known that if an antenna is used, it wont be compatible with any set top box or DVR so there would be no guide data or recording capabilities.

I have no FiOS DVRs. Instead I own 3 TiVo DVRs with cable cards and antenna connections. I get full guide data for all channels.

real_goose

join:2001-04-13
Apollo Beach, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to NOYB
said by NOYB:

Why is it that you wish to install an outdoor TV antenna?

The answer is "Other". I am so close to local Tampa transmitters, that I can use an indoor antenna in my garage attic that is lined with foil heat shielding. I do receive plenty of local programming. Some local channels are not carried on FiOS, but they are either advertising or religious. I was looking for backup in case the cable availability issue came up, but those missing local broadcast stations on FiOS are probably enough to make the case.

I plan to ask permission to install a TV antenna that I will use for ham radio. Note the original nofars.net cite also says: Since most VHF and UHF Amateur Radio antennas have dimensions that are similar to sizes of over-the-air television antennas (and could be used on a shared basis with OTA TV reception), an enterprising operator might be able to take advantage of a loophole. Presumably, one could choose to install a Yagi antenna designed for reception of a single television channel instead of the customary television Log-periodic-vee or similar type of broadband beam.

So as long as I can convince the HOA that they can not deny me permission to install an outdoor antenna, I have free reign to install an antenna that works with local repeaters which I find hard to use from inside my house or garage loft.


KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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1 recommendation

said by real_goose:

said by NOYB:

Why is it that you wish to install an outdoor TV antenna?

I plan to ask permission to install a TV antenna that I will use for ham radio. Note the original nofars.net cite also says: Since most VHF and UHF Amateur Radio antennas have dimensions that are similar to sizes of over-the-air television antennas (and could be used on a shared basis with OTA TV reception), an enterprising operator might be able to take advantage of a loophole. Presumably, one could choose to install a Yagi antenna designed for reception of a single television channel instead of the customary television Log-periodic-vee or similar type of broadband beam.

So as long as I can convince the HOA that they can not deny me permission to install an outdoor antenna, I have free reign to install an antenna that works with local repeaters which I find hard to use from inside my house or garage loft.

So what the hell does this have to do with FioS TV then??

You are trying to get your HOA to accept your installation of a Ham radio antenna by convincing them it's actually a TV antenna.
Then trying to argue that FiOS isn't REAL cable TV, as justification to skirt around their restrictions on installing TV antennas.

Why not just tell them it's a Ham radio antenna, there is already federal preemption's to your HOA(PRB-1) for that type of licensed use.

BBR already has a Ham Radio forum you can discuss this further in: »Ham Radio
--
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lijacobs

join:2010-07-30
Lawrence, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to real_goose
said by real_goose:

I plan to ask permission to install a TV antenna that I will use for ham radio.

Of course, you would have to be a licensed amateur.

real_goose

join:2001-04-13
Apollo Beach, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to KA3SGM
said by KA3SGM:

So what the hell does this have to do with FioS TV then??

My question was about the classification of FiOS TV. Answers I received helped me find the answer to my question which I maintain was about FiOS TV.

said by KA3SGM:

Why not just tell them it's a Ham radio antenna, there is already federal preemption's to your HOA(PRB-1) for that type of licensed use.

BBR already has a Ham Radio forum you can discuss this further in: »Ham Radio

For better or worse, topics here on dslreports tend to evolve (or devolve). Perhaps I shouldn't have answered the question about my reasons for asking.

Discussion of PRB-1 certainly belongs in the hamradio forum, but the bottom line is PRB-1 applies to local goverments but does not preempt CCR restrictions an HOA uses to restrict antennas.

PJL

join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by real_goose:

...
For better or worse, topics here on dslreports tend to evolve (or devolve). Perhaps I shouldn't have answered the question about my reasons for asking.

Discussion of PRB-1 certainly belongs in the hamradio forum, but the bottom line is PRB-1 applies to local goverments but does not preempt CCR restrictions an HOA uses to restrict antennas.

Although the topic devolved a bit (which commonly happens on threads), I'm for one appreciated the information provided.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:4
reply to real_goose
ah cool real_goose. You seeing the program info being truncated from five lines down to three with the ellipsis?
--
I'm always up for a good chat and helping with tech problems.