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tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium Member
join:2001-02-13
Bulger, PA

tp0d to 54067323

Premium Member

to 54067323

Re: The GFI for the refrigerator tripped

Fridges shouldnt be on a GFI.. Theres a very remote chance of a water grounded fault, and if the gfi trips when someone isnt around, the contents of the fridge go bad..

Duno if a sparky will agree with me, but this is what I`ve been taught..

-j
Speedy Petey
join:2008-01-19

Speedy Petey

Member

said by tp0d:

Fridges shouldnt be on a GFI.. Theres a very remote chance of a water grounded fault, and if the gfi trips when someone isnt around, the contents of the fridge go bad..

Duno if a sparky will agree with me, but this is what I`ve been taught..

-j

If I may ask, what "water" do you suppose could have done this??? Where is water in contact with electrical equipment?
If a heater element, or any other part of the refer, then there would obviously be a problem with the refer, and the water would not be the actual problem.

I'd be interested as to who taught you this. IMO this is the kind of answer someone gives when they really have no idea what they are talking about and just want to sound like they do. Not you, but whoever you heard this from.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

1 edit

54067323 (banned)

Member

said by Speedy Petey:

If I may ask, what "water" do you suppose could have done this??? Where is water in contact with electrical equipment?

It collects on the inside edge of the cabinet where the door gasket meets the cabinet and sometimes within the doors and it is the primary reason mullion heaters take a crap.

It is also common to find wet electrical switches in the door boxes of ice and water dispensers.

Water can also be found in direct contact with electrical within the defrost heater (cube release) of ice makers, those heaters are supposed to be “sealed” but that seal is far from perfect.

And any of the above can easily shunt enough current to the grounded shell to trip a GFCI.

Other less likely suspects are thermostats, defrost timers, evaporator and condenser fans or a cracked or rusted out defrost heater in the evaporator coil.

I'd be interested as to who taught you this. IMO this is the kind of answer someone gives when they really have no idea what they are talking about and just want to sound like they do. Not you, but whoever you heard this from.


Actually it more correct than not, allow me to explain.

Mullion heaters are a common cause if this type of fault, the reason how they are made and how they are applied.

The heaters (the cheap and common ones) are really not much more than a resistive strip sandwiched between two plastic sheets that insulate it from the cabinet and it is held in place with a double sided adhesive.

These strips are applied at the factory and due to speed of assembly and the surface they are applied to it is common for them to peel back a little here and there and where they do this, two things happen.

The heater lacking a cabinet gets hotter than it should and becomes brittle damaging the insulation and the cabinet collects condensation where the heater is no longer in contact with it and eventually the moisture and the heater meet causing a high resistance short to ground.

And if the fridge is on a GFCI it trips as it should.

Speedy Petey
join:2008-01-19

Speedy Petey

Member

said by 54067323:

said by Speedy Petey:

If I may ask, what "water" do you suppose could have done this??? Where is water in contact with electrical equipment?

It collects on the inside edge of the cabinet where the door gasket meets the cabinet and sometimes within the doors and it is the primary reason mullion heaters take a crap.

It is also common to find wet electrical switches in the door boxes of ice and water dispensers.

Water can also be found in direct contact with electrical within the defrost heater (cube release) of ice makers, those heaters are supposed to be “sealed” but that seal is far from perfect.

And any of the above can easily shunt enough current to the grounded shell to trip a GFCI.

Other less likely suspects are thermostats, defrost timers, evaporator and condenser fans or a cracked or rusted out defrost heater in the evaporator coil.

I'd be interested as to who taught you this. IMO this is the kind of answer someone gives when they really have no idea what they are talking about and just want to sound like they do. Not you, but whoever you heard this from.


Actually it more correct than not, allow me to explain.

Mullion heaters are a common cause if this type of fault, the reason how they are made and how they are applied.

The heaters (the cheap and common ones) are really not much more than a resistive strip sandwiched between two plastic sheets that insulate it from the cabinet and it is held in place with a double sided adhesive.

These strips are applied at the factory and due to speed of assembly and the surface they are applied to it is common for them to peel back a little here and there and where they do this, two things happen.

The heater lacking a cabinet gets hotter than it should and becomes brittle damaging the insulation and the cabinet collects condensation where the heater is no longer in contact with it and eventually the moisture and the heater meet causing a high resistance short to ground.

And if the fridge is on a GFCI it trips as it should.

My point is, it's not the water that is at fault, it is faulty equipment. Folks think just because there is water in the vicinity it will be a problem.
If this were true then why can a pool pump motor be in direct weather and not trip?

Like has been stated, ALL 15 & 20A-120V commercial kitchen receptacles must be GFI protected. And there is a LOT more water around in that setting.
Tripping is actually pretty rare.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned)

Member

said by Speedy Petey:

Like has been stated, ALL 15 & 20A-120V commercial kitchen receptacles must be GFI protected. And there is a LOT more water around in that setting.
Tripping is actually pretty rare.

Might I ask where is that requirement in the code?

550.13(C) only requires a grounded outlet for cord connected appliances.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

2 recommendations

John Galt6

Premium Member

NEC 210.8(B)(2) covers all non-residential kitchens.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned)

Member

said by John Galt6:

NEC 210.8(B)(2) covers all non-residential kitchens.

Cool, I see now other than dwelling units.

I'll look into it further just as soon as I am done checking my compressors for excessive capacitance.

tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium Member
join:2001-02-13
Bulger, PA

1 edit

tp0d to Speedy Petey

Premium Member

to Speedy Petey
said by Speedy Petey:

said by tp0d:

Fridges shouldnt be on a GFI.. Theres a very remote chance of a water grounded fault, and if the gfi trips when someone isnt around, the contents of the fridge go bad..

Duno if a sparky will agree with me, but this is what I`ve been taught..

-j

If I may ask, what "water" do you suppose could have done this??? Where is water in contact with electrical equipment?
If a heater element, or any other part of the refer, then there would obviously be a problem with the refer, and the water would not be the actual problem.

I'd be interested as to who taught you this. IMO this is the kind of answer someone gives when they really have no idea what they are talking about and just want to sound like they do. Not you, but whoever you heard this from.

You may ask... but I`m not jumping into this tennis match, just elaborating my side. Just a plumber sharing my opinion

Water can contact a ckt at a solenoid connection, possible leakage from freezer if the coils freeze over, door heaters as mentioned above.. but this was not the basis of my point. I meant the chance of water causing a partial short to ground or chassis is pretty damn rare in a ressy setting. Much more of a chance for the windings in the compressor to overheat and cause the failure of the insulation, which I have seen in fridges and a few washing machines. Mostly older equipment of course. Hell, my tightwad nephew has a beer fridge that when he moved into his new house, it tripped the GFI immediately. His solution? Change the plug to a standard lol.. House hasnt burned down yet heh.. When I remodeled my kitchen, I put 20a GFIs on the left and right of the sink, but not for the fridge..

As for who taught me this.. my dad.. Who once lost a full freezer of food because a stupid GFI.. Best they can remember, a lightening storm tripped it, they didnt check it for a while, and you can guess the rest.. GFI didnt trip after resetting it tho, until it was changed out..

-j
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned)

Member

said by tp0d:

I meant the chance of water causing a partial short to ground or chassis is pretty damn rare in a ressy setting.

I guess it depends upon the conditions the fridge is working in, close to the shore or with a prevailing wind off the ocean will bring moisture and in some cases salt air.

Much more of a chance for the windings in the compressor to overheat and cause the failure of the insulation, which I have seen in fridges and a few washing machines.

Overheating of the windings, commonly the result of failing to keep the condenser clean is a cancer to the insulation of the windings which are quite thin, it begins with a little bit of resistance to the grounded frame the wiring is wrapped around.

At this point it can trip a GFCI.

But most fridges are not connected thru a GFCI and what happens then is the already overloaded compressor has now picked up the burden of the failing wiring overheating it even more causing more insulation damage and sooner or later there is a flashover and that’s the end of the compressor.

And that’s a hard fault and easy to shoot.