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sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

Circuit Short

So I'm in the middle of writing a critical email for work and the power goes out, but the rest of the house is okay. Go down, reset the breaker, and the lighting main trips and everything goes dark. After rooting around due to lack of a flashlight, I get the power back on for the rest of the house. Unplug everything and check all the connections at all the accesible points, everything is nice and tight (if old). Then I go down and remove the breaker, remove the wire, cap it, put the breaker back in place, and flip it on, no problems (not a surprise). So now I have a problem. The house was built in the early 60's ('61 maybe?), but this is an add on circuit by the looks of the wire (romex (70s era 12 gauge romex with the undersized ground) vs cloth/textured rubber BX). My question is if there is a short (I'm thinking yes), and if so, what's the easiest way to fix it right?

The problem with this circuit is that it literally runs the length of the house and makes various stops along the way (couple outlets in various rooms, and two fluorescent ceiling lights that are plugins). It is accessible for some of the run (due to the basement being entirely ceiling tiles), but some of it is behind 70's paneling.

StillLearn
Premium Member
join:2002-03-21
Streamwood, IL

StillLearn

Premium Member

The problem could be in one of the things you unplugged, if I understand your description.

I would like to use an ohmmeter, but I would first start with a voltmeter. Isolate the three wires (or 2 wires) in the cable. Is there a voltage between any of those and ground. If no, I would try ohms. Is there continuity between any of the wires and a pipe (etc) ground. A wire to ground short would be handled differently than a wire to wire short. Wire to ground short could be a nail or screw through a wire. Wire to wire would be more likely something still plugged in, but maybe not.

I am more electronic oriented, so those who more frequently do power wiring and troubleshooting may have better tips.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

said by StillLearn:

The problem could be in one of the things you unplugged, if I understand your description.

Not quite, it trips with nothing plugged in.

As far as what shorts, the Fluke (hah!) reports continuity across all wires. The strange part is that this setup has been untouched since the early 70's for the most part.
sk1939

sk1939

Premium Member

Click for full size
Rough Illegible Drawing of circuit run.
Note that the first three outlets are currently buried behind multiple rows of boxes so testing them will not be easy.

StillLearn
Premium Member
join:2002-03-21
Streamwood, IL

StillLearn

Premium Member

All three (white, black, and green, right?) show continuity to each other. Strange. I don't know how a single short would cause that.
Remove the light bulbs for testing in addition to turning the switches off-- in case you are wrong about which way the switches work.

You determined that the fault was before the box at the lower right of your drawing. Try breaking the chain in another box next. Can you open the box to the left of the 12 ft label, and disconnect those lines to further isolate?

You did not say whether there was continuity to ground.

Here is another test that you might consider: rig up something that will put a limited 1 amp to 10 amp to the wires. Maybe use a 200 watt light bulb or 200 watt soldering iron in series or a 500 watt hair dryer. With your voltmeter, measure the voltage at each outlet downstream. It may only measure millivolts. Let's say the short is in the farthest outlet box. The number of millivolts will decrease as you approach the short. Alternatively, suppose the short is midway down the line. The millivolts will go down as you test your way farther from the power source. If you pass the short, all of the subsequent outlets should measure about the same millivolts, because the wires past the short are not carrying current.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

1 recommendation

robbin to sk1939

Mod

to sk1939
I would start about the middle of the circuit and disconnect the wire. See if it still trips. Depending on yes or no, do similar one direction or other until you pinpoint a problem in a box or you isolate the bad section of wire. Then, depending on what you find will determine how to proceed to repair.

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold to StillLearn

MVM

to StillLearn
The suggestion to break the circuit at different places to narrow down in which section the short circuit is occurring is a good one.

While from an electronic perspective your 200W / 500W load test makes sense, I would advise against it. We don't know (yet) the nature of the short circuit or where it is located and it really doesn't take a lot of electrical energy to make a small contact area get very hot (and it is not a big leap from hot to fire).

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to StillLearn

Premium Member

to StillLearn
said by StillLearn:

All three (white, black, and green, right?) show continuity to each other. Strange. I don't know how a single short would cause that.

Continuity across all three wires yes. There are no lightbulbs per se, just plug in fluorescent fixtures that have switched outlets.
said by StillLearn:

You determined that the fault was before the box at the lower right of your drawing. Try breaking the chain in another box next. Can you open the box to the left of the 12 ft label, and disconnect those lines to further isolate?

You did not say whether there was continuity to ground.

I tried it between outlet two and four, and it shows there is continuity between hot, ground, and neutral via extension cord plugged into said outlet. However, outlet two is not easily removed as there as it is built into the side of a built-in bookcase that is next to a cast iron drain line (I have no idea how they got the outlet in there). There is continuity between ground and the drain.
said by StillLearn:

Here is another test that you might consider: rig up something that will put a limited 1 amp to 10 amp to the wires. Maybe use a 200 watt light bulb or 200 watt soldering iron in series or a 500 watt hair dryer. With your voltmeter, measure the voltage at each outlet downstream. It may only measure millivolts. Let's say the short is in the farthest outlet box. The number of millivolts will decrease as you approach the short. Alternatively, suppose the short is midway down the line. The millivolts will go down as you test your way farther from the power source. If you pass the short, all of the subsequent outlets should measure about the same millivolts, because the wires past the short are not carrying current.

There is no way to apply power to the circuit as it trips the main breaker when on.

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold

MVM

said by sk1939:

There is no way to apply power to the circuit as it trips the main breaker when on.

He meant to temporarily rewire the circuit to put a load in series with the short circuit (which would stop the breaker from tripping) Technically the suggestion is sound, but as I said before I don't recommend it because of the potential fire hazard.

Raphion
join:2000-10-14
Samsara

Raphion to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
The hard to remove outlet wedged in next to cast iron pipe sounds like a really good area to check out closely.

The "small load" suggestion was to connect the lightbulb or whatever in series with the circuit as a current limiter, in the same fashion as an ammeter would be connected. I wouldn't do that though, personally, because, as leibold said, it might make the short hot enough to pose a fire risk.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada
MikroTik RB450G
Cisco DPC3008
Cisco SPA112

TheMG to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

There is no way to apply power to the circuit as it trips the main breaker when on.

Instant trip?

If so, you're looking at a dead short.

If, with everything unplugged and all light switches turned off the short persists, time to start opening up switch, outlet, and junction boxes.

Perhaps a wire has come loose and is shorting to ground inside one of the boxes. A damaged receptacle is also a possibility.

Raphion
join:2000-10-14
Samsara

Raphion

Member

Perhaps a case of backstab pulling out inside a grounded metal box and touching the box.

StillLearn
Premium Member
join:2002-03-21
Streamwood, IL

StillLearn to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
I am thinking that your ohmmeter is too sensitive. Set it on its lowest setting.

Alternatively, find a continuity tester that uses a light bulb as a continuity indicator that has an internal battery. That will be less sensitive to high resistances. »www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Li ··· 16561530 or something similar could be useful for this.

Liebold may be right. I could try telling you how to wire a load in series for testing, but something could get misunderstood.

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

said by StillLearn:

The problem could be in one of the things you unplugged, if I understand your description.

Not quite, it trips with nothing plugged in.

As far as what shorts, the Fluke (hah!) reports continuity across all wires.

Can you please describe in a bit more detail exactly what steps you have taken while troubleshooting so far ? As nice as digital multimeters look, this is one of the situations where a high impedance does not help (and can easily lead to wrong conclusions).

Your circuit diagram does not only show wall outlets but also light fixtures. The "nothing plugged in" statement is probably true (unless there are more outlets you are not aware off) but the conclusion that this means that there are no loads on the circuit is not. You might be measuring continuity across a light fixture (very low resistance for incandescent bulbs).

Also the fact that the ground wire has continuity with the drain pipe is to be expected unless you actually disconnect the ground wire during testing (I would leave it connected and just focus on hot and neutral wires). Both the metal pipe and the ground wire are supposed to be connected to ground.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin

Mod

said by leibold:

Also the fact that the ground wire has continuity with the drain pipe is to be expected unless you actually disconnect the ground wire during testing (I would leave it connected and just focus on hot and neutral wires). Both the metal pipe and the ground wire are supposed to be connected to ground.

Same for the neutral.
Hellrazor
Bah Humbug
join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA

Hellrazor to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
How about a completely different track - In the last few days did you do any of the following?

Hang up a new picture or anything else on the walls?
Did you plug in new equipment or move plugs around for existing equipment?
Plug in a sweeper, fan or anything else?

If you did any of that, check those outlets first.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned) to robbin

Member

to robbin
said by robbin:

I would start about the middle of the circuit and disconnect the wire.

That's trouble shooting 101, divide and conquer.
54067323

54067323 (banned) to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

As far as what shorts, the Fluke (hah!) reports continuity across all wires. The strange part is that this setup has been untouched since the early 70's for the most part.

Isolate the romex from the breaker panel and put the Fluke across the white and black wires of the disconnected run.

Disconnect everything from that circuit.

If you see a high ohm reading something you un-plugged is the problem.

If you see a low ohm reading, then as Robbin suggested go around the midpoint of the run and disconnect white and black wires from each other or the device they are connected to.

If you still have low resistance then the problem is between that point and the meter so divide the run again and retest.

Eventually, you shold be able to clear the trouble this way.

BlueMist
join:2011-01-24
Cookeville, TN

BlueMist to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
Try unscrewing all light bulbs known to be on the circuit. Not impossible for a bulb to go into a short rather than an open when the bulb "blows".

Same goes for disconnecting any florescent lights that might have a ballast transformer which could have gone into a shorted state.
JoelC707
Premium Member
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL

JoelC707 to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

said by StillLearn:

All three (white, black, and green, right?) show continuity to each other. Strange. I don't know how a single short would cause that.

Continuity across all three wires yes. There are no lightbulbs per se, just plug in fluorescent fixtures that have switched outlets.

Are the switches for those outlets off? If not switch them off or unplug them and test again. If they are off but still plugged in and they are shorted, they could be the cause of the neutral to ground short. Though technically at some point those two should be bonded anyway so you will see a short between neutral and ground anyway. Everything else is unplugged though, right?

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
There's only one way to do it. Unplug / disconnect anything that's readily accessible. Segment and isolate. A tone generator is very handy in these situations. So is an analog VOM.

Leave the tone running across the black and white at the panel (both disconnected, of course). On an older tone, like a 77HP with a good battery, I can sometimes "hear" where the short is.

Newer tones with the "car alarm" IC simply change tones each time the line is shorted. They don't work too well for tracking shorts. One good thing is the tone will change every time you open the short.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to Raphion

Premium Member

to Raphion
said by Raphion:

Perhaps a case of backstab pulling out inside a grounded metal box and touching the box.

Of the two outlets I pulled out, they have both been old enough to not even have backstab terminals (both were GE-branded).
sk1939

sk1939 to leibold

Premium Member

to leibold
said by leibold:

Can you please describe in a bit more detail exactly what steps you have taken while troubleshooting so far ? As nice as digital multimeters look, this is one of the situations where a high impedance does not help (and can easily lead to wrong conclusions).

- Checked breaker functionality
- Checked visible wire run
- Unplugged all devices to check if it was a device malfunction
- Checked for continuity
- Checked accessible junction/outlet connections for loose wires and malfunction.
said by leibold:

Your circuit diagram does not only show wall outlets but also light fixtures. The "nothing plugged in" statement is probably true (unless there are more outlets you are not aware off) but the conclusion that this means that there are no loads on the circuit is not. You might be measuring continuity across a light fixture (very low resistance for incandescent bulbs).

There are no lightbulbs, those are actually plug-in fixtures.
said by leibold:

Also the fact that the ground wire has continuity with the drain pipe is to be expected unless you actually disconnect the ground wire during testing (I would leave it connected and just focus on hot and neutral wires). Both the metal pipe and the ground wire are supposed to be connected to ground.

I figured that.
sk1939

sk1939 to Hellrazor

Premium Member

to Hellrazor
said by Hellrazor:

How about a completely different track - In the last few days did you do any of the following?

Hang up a new picture or anything else on the walls?
Did you plug in new equipment or move plugs around for existing equipment?
Plug in a sweeper, fan or anything else?

If you did any of that, check those outlets first.

No new pictures or holes in the wall. Stuff is always being plugged in and unplugged so that is not much of a criteria.
sk1939

sk1939 to JoelC707

Premium Member

to JoelC707
said by JoelC707:

said by sk1939:

said by StillLearn:

All three (white, black, and green, right?) show continuity to each other. Strange. I don't know how a single short would cause that.

Continuity across all three wires yes. There are no lightbulbs per se, just plug in fluorescent fixtures that have switched outlets.

Are the switches for those outlets off? If not switch them off or unplug them and test again. If they are off but still plugged in and they are shorted, they could be the cause of the neutral to ground short. Though technically at some point those two should be bonded anyway so you will see a short between neutral and ground anyway. Everything else is unplugged though, right?

They are off and unplugged. They are also old enough to be ungrounded.
sk1939

sk1939 to 54067323

Premium Member

to 54067323
said by 54067323:

said by sk1939:

As far as what shorts, the Fluke (hah!) reports continuity across all wires. The strange part is that this setup has been untouched since the early 70's for the most part.

Isolate the romex from the breaker panel and put the Fluke across the white and black wires of the disconnected run.

Disconnect everything from that circuit.

If you see a high ohm reading something you un-plugged is the problem.

If you see a low ohm reading, then as Robbin suggested go around the midpoint of the run and disconnect white and black wires from each other or the device they are connected to.

If you still have low resistance then the problem is between that point and the meter so divide the run again and retest.

Eventually, you shold be able to clear the trouble this way.

Low ohm reading, but the outlets are inaccessible and will be for a couple days probably.

TheTechGuru
join:2004-03-25
TEXAS

TheTechGuru to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
Sounds like a warn out breaker to me. When they get old they trip under very little load then eventually won't stay on at all.

70's you say? I say time for a complete new SquareD or GE panel.
54067323 (banned)
join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

54067323 (banned) to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

Low ohm reading, but the outlets are inaccessible and will be for a couple days probably.

There is no where else you can split it?
54067323

54067323 (banned) to leibold

Member

to leibold
said by leibold:

As nice as digital multimeters look, this is one of the situations where a high impedance does not help (and can easily lead to wrong conclusions).

Wow, being so true I thought I would never see that posted on the Internet.

There are times when something like a 310 or even a buzzer as Nunya recommended are considerably more appropriate when shooting a hard/its broke trouble such as this one.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

Premium Member

Every Sparky worth their salt has a 'ringer'...