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bryank

join:2000-03-23
Plainfield, IL
reply to fartness

Re: Appx. hours of labor?

I actually just got this from BestBuy for $199, they are on clearance, so it could be hard to find at that price. But it's been up and running for a few days and we like it. Comes with EVERYTHING you need including the POE supply and a powerline kit. So I installed this in on my garage, plugged in the supplied ethernet cable to the POE/Powerline device. Then near my computer plugged in the other end of the powerline device to my router, installed the software, and I was up and running. Literally 30 minute install...

»www.amazon.com/Logitech-Outdoor-···ech+750e



fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to robbin

said by robbin:

You want an outdoor camera if it is going to be outdoors and one that has POE if you want that feature. Something like this perhaps

»www.amazon.com/Foscam-FI8905E-Et···08PEUNUU

That looks decent, I'll buy one for front, and one for detached garage (back). If the range isn't good enough, I'll buy a third to put on the rear of the house. At least everything I care about will be covered.

So if I buy 3 cameras, I need three of these?

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

Check the angle of view for your mounting locations before deciding on a certain camera. You may need a different lens.



fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

How? I don't understand the difference that leibold posted.

Is that camera you linked 802.11g also? I see a wireless antenna on it but no mention of it. Can I power it with PoE and then connect and record using 802.11g?


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

You have to look at the degrees of viewing angle. That tells you how wide angle or telephoto the camera is. Absolutely no reason to power with POE and then use wireless. You have already run the wire -- use it. Wired is always better that wireless.



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to fartness

said by fartness:

So if I buy 3 cameras, I need three of these?

Depends. Three of those would certainly work. That may be the way to if you have cameras on opposite ends of the house and don't want to run dedicated Ethernet cables over the full length of the home.

However if you bring the Ethernet cable from each of those cameras to the same place in the home then you can use a single POE switch instead (I have an 8-port switch where 4 ports are POE enabled).
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fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to fartness

So I can't just plug the other end into my router? I have to buy a dedicated PoE switch which plugs into my router?

It seems easier to power them using PoE (and plugged the AC adapter into a convenient spot), rather than running an extra cat5 cable to my wired router on my 2nd floor. The basement would likely be the staging area. I even think there's conduit from my garage since it has electricity and is detached that I could use to get back to the house (maybe 30 to 50 feet away, too lazy to measure right now). That's all why powering with PoE due to lack of outlets seems easier and using 802.11g for the wireless. I could upgrade to an n router if I ever need my devices not slowed down (only my cellphone and work laptop use my 802.11a/g, neither of which I use much).



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to fartness

said by fartness:

How? I don't understand the difference that leibold posted.

Most security cameras are fixed focus, meaning that they don't have a zoom lens that would let you zoom out (wide angle) to see the whole width of your property and then zoom in to get a good look at that suspicious guy standing at the edge of the driveway. While there is digital zoom that can partially make up for the lack of an optical zoom lens, the resolution of those cameras isn't high enough to get any detail when zooming in.

For an inexpensive fixed focus security camera it is therefore important to select a model with the right viewing angle: wide angle gives more coverage of the property but less detail and typically less useful distance while a tele lens will provide greater detail even at longer distances while omitting things that are outside of the narrower viewing angle).

If you find it difficult to make the choice between zoom lens and wide angle lens, you can pick a model that does have a zoom lens (those do tend to cost more then a fixed focus lens). If you do get a zoom lens it also makes sense to get a pan and tilt mount for the camera so that you can direct the camera where to point when you zoom in (the combination of Pan, Tilt and Zoom features in a security camera is often indicated with the abbreviation PTZ).
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AsherN
Premium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON
reply to fartness

said by fartness:

So I can't just plug the other end into my router? I have to buy a dedicated PoE switch which plugs into my router?

It seems easier to power them using PoE (and plugged the AC adapter into a convenient spot), rather than running an extra cat5 cable to my wired router on my 2nd floor. The basement would likely be the staging area. I even think there's conduit from my garage since it has electricity and is detached that I could use to get back to the house (maybe 30 to 50 feet away, too lazy to measure right now). That's all why powering with PoE due to lack of outlets seems easier and using 802.11g for the wireless. I could upgrade to an n router if I ever need my devices not slowed down (only my cellphone and work laptop use my 802.11a/g, neither of which I use much).

PoE does not use an extra Ethernet cable. An Ethernet cable has 4 pairs. 10/100Mbps uses only 2. A PoE injector will supply power over one of the other 2 pairs. It is possible, but unlikely, that a Wi-Fi camera will also support Cat5. If you want to deliver power via PoE to avoid needing a standard outlet close to the camera, then you don't need Wi-Fi.


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to fartness

said by fartness:

So I can't just plug the other end into my router?

You have choices:

1.) You can use separate POE injectors (like the one you linked to earlier). An Ethernet cable would go from your router or switch or hub to the input side of the POE injector and a second Ethernet cable would go from the output side of the POE injector to the security camera. Repeat for each camera (6 cables for 3 cameras).

2.) You can use a POE switch. One Ethernet cable would go from your router to the switch to provide network connectivity. In addition one Ethernet cable per camera connects each camera to one of the POE switch ports. The advantage is less clutter and only one power outlet used (only 4 cables for 3 cameras). Think of a POE switch as nothing but a regular switch with POE injectors added inside (for added convenience).

3.) It is not even an either/or choice. You could use a POE switch in the back of the house where you plan to have 2 cameras and use a single port POE injector in the front of the house. Mix and match as you like.

4.) If you don't currently use a wired network (it seems you prefer wireless), yet another option is to get a wireless POE switch. Obviously all the devices that you do want to power over the Ethernet cable (the security cameras) need to be connected to the POE switch with Ethernet cables but the connection to the rest of your network can be wireless (even if the cameras themselves are not wireless). In this option you would only need 3 cables to connect the 3 cameras.
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fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to fartness

leibold, (first post), if it helps, I'm not home a lot, so I likely won't be zooming in, etc. I'd rather have more cameras with a sharper focus in one area, then less with a wider, but lesser quality view. With that being said, should I still go for the one linked?

AsherN, I'm still a bit confused. It's easier to run ethernet than 12/2 (I'm not an electrician, and I'd rather not pay one) to power the camera. I could just run the ethernet cable to an outlet that is far enough away that it can't use AC, but close enough that I can still run the PoE. However, my house is not wired for cat 5, so I'd have a huge project getting wires up to my second floor where my networking equipment is. Not sure what the point of wifi on a camera is then? Or are you saying to use the PoE to power AND network the device? If so, I don't see how feasible that is, since I'd have to run a lot of cat 5 all around the house. I thought that was the whole point of 802.11a/b/g/n etc?



fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

4 edits
reply to leibold

I'm understanding it a bit more. It sounds like option 2 requires me to wire up everything into a central location, but I'd have to wire the house up, drill, etc.? Would option 4 allow each device to plug into the PoE outlet, then have the PoE wireless connect to each device? Or something different. I've posted a picture of my house's setup on how I would do the cameras.

I suppose I could wire the front and rear house cameras into a basement PoE switch, then run a wire from my basement to the 2nd floor thru the laundry shoot, then to my router. Not sure how I'd do the garage one if I did that. Would any of what I just described work? The garage camera might not be needed also if I face it towards the garage. OR... could I have a separate wireless router in my basement (LAN connection only), and hook the PoE switch to it, then connect using a second wireless card on my 2nd floor DVR (or bridge the two connections on the DVR for WAN access)?

Link to a good PoE switch? They look expensive.

What is the point of wifi on these cameras? Or is that mainly for non-PoE cameras?


fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to fartness

Ok, how about this. Is this a good setup or can I do something easier?


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5
reply to fartness

Another suggestion:

Multi-Port Passive POE Injector for 8 devices

»fe.gd/B9o
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leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

1 edit
reply to fartness

said by fartness:

Ok, how about this. Is this a good setup or can I do something easier?

This will work fine.

You can buy devices that combine a wireless access port and a POE switch in one unit (one less power plug, one cable connection less). I had a quick look at prices and they were unreasonably high (aimed at businesses instead of consumers). I think the solution as you have drawn will be cheaper especially since you probably don't need a full router for "wireless2 router", a simple wireless access point should be sufficient.

Based on your drawing it seems you should get a camera with tele focus (e.g. the 6mm lens on the Foscam camera) for the one overlooking the driveway and a camera with wide angle (e.g. the 4mm lens on the Foscam camera) for the one overlooking the back of the house. Based on the angle indicated in the drawing the camera at the front of the house would have a narrow (tele) angle too.

Edit: an unmanaged 8 port POE switch (some of those will have only 4 ports with POE but that is enough) run between $100 and $200 and is available from all the usual suspects in the consumer network space. So far all I have used mine for is to power an Ethernet Arduino which is too little usage to make any recommendations. As long as the switch is standard compliant you should be good to go. The Foscam cameras don't use a lot of power so you shouldn't have to worry about total power consumption (there is usually a per port limit and a total switch limit). That is something to watch out for if you decide to get cameras with pan&tilt and motorized zoom since all those motors add to the power budget.
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54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by leibold:

Based on your drawing it seems you should get a camera with tele focus (e.g. the 6mm lens on the Foscam camera) for the one overlooking the driveway and a camera with wide angle (e.g. the 4mm lens on the Foscam camera) for the one overlooking the back of the house. Based on the angle indicated in the drawing the camera at the front of the house would have a narrow (tele) angle too.

Maybe this will help you make a decision on the proper lens and more.

»www.boschsecurity.us/NR/rdonlyre···mera.pdf

AsherN
Premium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON
reply to leibold

The PoE vs Wi-Fi is not about swich vs injectors. It's whether you can find a Wi-Fi camera that also allows a wired connection and if that connection allows PoE. That may be difficult to find.


H_T_R_N
Premium
join:2011-12-06
Valencia, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·voip.ms

said by AsherN:

The PoE vs Wi-Fi is not about swich vs injectors. It's whether you can find a Wi-Fi camera that also allows a wired connection and if that connection allows PoE. That may be difficult to find.

Why would he need a Wi-Fi camera if he is going to wire it up for POE use?

AsherN
Premium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

said by H_T_R_N:

said by AsherN:

The PoE vs Wi-Fi is not about swich vs injectors. It's whether you can find a Wi-Fi camera that also allows a wired connection and if that connection allows PoE. That may be difficult to find.

Why would he need a Wi-Fi camera if he is going to wire it up for POE use?

Bacause he does not have the peoper wired infrastucture. Nor does he have electrical outlets near the cameras. From what I can gather, he wants to pull Cat5 from the nearest 110V outlet and use a PoE injector to power the camera, but get the signal through Wi-Fi.

nokiatech

join:2000-10-18
Stuart, FL
reply to John Galt

That is brilliant. How have I not seen these before?


H_T_R_N
Premium
join:2011-12-06
Valencia, PA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to AsherN

said by AsherN:

said by H_T_R_N:

said by AsherN:

The PoE vs Wi-Fi is not about swich vs injectors. It's whether you can find a Wi-Fi camera that also allows a wired connection and if that connection allows PoE. That may be difficult to find.

Why would he need a Wi-Fi camera if he is going to wire it up for POE use?

Bacause he does not have the peoper wired infrastucture. Nor does he have electrical outlets near the cameras. From what I can gather, he wants to pull Cat5 from the nearest 110V outlet and use a PoE injector to power the camera, but get the signal through Wi-Fi.

If someone is going to pull cat5 to an outlet for power than a simple gateway device attached where the power is injected would negate the need for a Wi-Fi device that also has POE. If he is not going to send data over the cat5 then just use a weather proof direct burial 18-16 gauge wire to power it. Again no need for POE injectors.
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fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to fartness

Drilling the cameras into my siding, what should I use to make sure water doesn't get in the hole I drilled and ruin the house?

What kind of cat 5 cable needs to be used since the wires will slightly be outside, won't they?

My backyard is fenced, so someone will likely pass by the first camera on the front of the house, but if for whatever reason they hop the fence, at least the backyard camera is there to focus on the back door and garage. I still think that should be enough since even though it's a big yard, it's not huge.



fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to AsherN

said by AsherN:

said by H_T_R_N:

said by AsherN:

The PoE vs Wi-Fi is not about swich vs injectors. It's whether you can find a Wi-Fi camera that also allows a wired connection and if that connection allows PoE. That may be difficult to find.

Why would he need a Wi-Fi camera if he is going to wire it up for POE use?

Bacause he does not have the peoper wired infrastucture. Nor does he have electrical outlets near the cameras. From what I can gather, he wants to pull Cat5 from the nearest 110V outlet and use a PoE injector to power the camera, but get the signal through Wi-Fi.

^^this, but my picture I made in a previous post might be easy enough to do since I am comfortable with hanging up cat 5 wire in my basement.

BTW, is cat 6 ok for PoE or will the extra sheilding, etc. cause issues?


fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside
reply to leibold

I can't find the link to a PoE wide angle one on Amazon. I only found non-PoE that is slightly cheaper by 10 to 15 dollars. Is there one?



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

I ordered it on Amazon. When I now go back to the page it says 6mm lens in the product title and 4mm lens and 40 degree angle in the product description. That makes me wonder what I'll actually get when it gets here ?

Both Foscam cameras are listed on Amazon with the same model number (and both with multiple sellers).
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fartness
computersoc dot com
Premium
join:2003-03-25
Look Outside

1 edit

Was the price the same for both?

I thought Foscam sells directly from their site too last time I checked.

What kind of server and software do these Foscams come with? Is it any good?



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

said by fartness:

Was the price the same for both?

The price for both cameras from several sellers was with 2-3 dollars of each other. It seemed larger at first glance, but that was only because the $100 offer had a $6 shipping cost while the $106 offer had free shipping.

I haven't received it yet and no prior experience with that company or their products. I don't expect that it comes with a server (network dvr).
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leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to fartness

Re: Appx. hours of labor?

said by fartness:

I thought Foscam sells directly from their site too last time I checked.

Foscam sells directly from their sites. Something I didn't pay attention to is that the US Support and Warranty only apply if the camera is purchased directly from Foscam US. Purchases from other regional Foscam sites (specifically Foscam China) are excluded. Also explicitly excluded are Ebay and Amazon purchased cameras!
said by fartness:

What kind of server and software do these Foscams come with? Is it any good?

I did receive the camera yesterday and today did some quick testing.
As expected the camera does not include a server. There is a CD included that I didn't open (for Mac and Windows) but that is not needed to make full use of the camera (the purpose of the included software is to make it easier for less technically inclined users to do the initial setup of the camera). I believe a software dvr is available from Foscam.

The good:
- the camera is big and heavy and makes a very robust impression (strong aluminum case)
- despite the self-contradicting product description it did come with the 4mm lens that I wanted
- no proprietary software needed!
- the IR light is extremely bright and reaches a good distance
- the IR light can be turned off (camera has reasonable sensitivity in dim light to still show colors)
- the camera can be powered through a supplied power adapter or through PoE (PoE is not mandatory)

The bad:
- when I first tried the camera the network interface did not work (make that the first 50 or so attempts). This does not seem to be a rare thing either based on some of the comments found on varies places on the Internet. Even factory reset (hold reset button for 30-45 seconds) did not work. It suddenly started to work after I left it alone (but powered and connected) for an extended period of time. The symptoms were no link indicator on the network (both ends) but signs that the camera was powered (click sound from relay when IR lights turn on/off as light becomes brighter/dimmer in front of the camera).
- even the 4mm lens is still a much narrower field of view then I expected. As far as I can tell 4mm and 6mm are the only options which means I can't use this type of camera in some of the places I wanted to (I need something much wider).

Overall I think the camera is worth the money I paid for it. Additional lens options for a wider view would be nice (and of course higher resolution).
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Daarken
Rara Avises
Premium
join:2005-01-12
Southwest LA
kudos:3
reply to fartness

Fartness, here are my suggestions.
No.1 your buying a cheap camera for outdoor use due to budget.
The cheap $22 passive poe injector is a good buy. How well it works, I don't know.
No.2 if your going to record the record video onto a "dvr" your going to consume some bandwidth and it might affect other wireless devices.
No.3 Recording Quality, even with a "IP" camera it will not spectacular video, probably not much better than VGA.
No.4 Cameras like these are great for seeing the big picture, and if your beyond 20 feet or so, you can make out shapes or colors when watching the playback.

Seal the penetration with clear silicone.
If you are running CAT5E to the cameras and it is not outdoor grade, then it can last probably 2 to 3 years, if you want it to last alot longer, you need to get an outdoor rated cable.

So if this is what you want, then here is a decent deal, 2 foscam poe/ip cameras with poe switch. and blue iris dvr software.
»www.amazon.com/Foscam-FI8905E-Ou···r+camera
I suggest you also ready any of the comments on each. Just be warned you pay for what you get.

btw, dont waste money seting up a DVR, just get a decent outdoor camera (MEGA PIXEL) with a SD slot.
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