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rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105

[Northeast] ISDN BRI possible over FiOS?

I was contemplating setting up a home studio. As you may know, audio over IP is pretty good; there are lots of shows (for example "The Tech Guy") which utilize technologies such as Skype. But ultimately, due to latentcy and throughput guarantees made by ISDN, the (OTA) broadcast industry as well as some recording studios have generally standardized on ISDN as a means of connecting remote studios. (Even the Petaluma to Sherman Oaks/Premiere link for "The Tech Guy" is ISDN.)

I have seen some posts on BBR before about ISDN over FiOS, but those are a few years old. I was wondering whether ISDN BRI is possible over FiOS because FiOS is available where I live, and if I'm not mistaken, it's somewhere in the region of 25 to 30 k-wire-ft. to the CO (quite a bit over the 18k which I thought ISDN would support).
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.

Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck!


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
Not possible - there is no way to send ISDN BRI over FiOS.


rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
Sigh...so it'd probably be mondo expensive, but how about PRI? I would imagine Verizon would want to provide trunking and Internet access for businesses.

batsona
Maryland

join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Verizon FiOS
PRI and BRI are two totally different entities, and are also seperate from FIOS. A PRI will be brought into your house over 4 copper wires & terminated with VZ equipment just like a T1 would. The cost would be comparible too! I didn't know there was much use for ISDN these days; I understand about the low/predictible latency, but those issues can be solved in large part by appliances which can buffer traffic etc etc... However, to the point -- PRI and BRI don't/won't have anything to do with FiOS.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
reply to rchandra
Just not possible. ISDN line coding, either BRI or PRI, isn't compatible with any FiOS equipment....


rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
Roger. Thanks.

I was just hoping that since they already multiplex phone lines, video, and Internet access, they might do digital phone lines as well. Looks like if anything, they'd have to run fiber for PRI to here.

(Actually, not sure why, but they don't have video in this neighborhood. It is in other towns in this county, so I'm assuming it's an inability of Verizon to negotiate successfully with Cheektowaga.)


rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105

2 edits
reply to batsona
The end-user interface might be 4 wire, but the link from the CO to the premesis can very well be fiber optic, at least for PRI. They're also running video and POTS lines through ONTs, and I was curious as to other phone services.

Also, regardless of what I would do in my own network, such as DSCP, it only goes as far as my network; any routers between my border and the other end's border are free to ignore any of these "suggestions." I'm afraid the only way to guarantee these technical parameters is with another type of service: ATM, ISDN, Frame, MPLS, etc. Otherwise, everyone could just set the bits for low latentcy or whatever, and we'd be no better off. There's the matter of trusting the end-user/customer to set these bits appropriately and never lie about the needed path characteristics. I have a feeling that's why studios still use ISDN.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.

Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck!

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
reply to nycdave
said by nycdave:

Not possible - there is no way to send ISDN BRI over FiOS.

Not true; it is possible, however Verizon doesn't install equipment that can.

FiOS voice is VoIP. The NID is what converts it to an analog line. While the latency/jitter will not be predictable (packet switched vs. circuit switched), I seriously doubt you have equipment that even tell the difference, much less care about it.

I suspect the only reason anyone uses ISDN is to get higher voice quality (64kbps) instead of the compressed noise of POTS.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
OK, well let's put it this way - no FiOS equipment vendor can do ISDN over FiOS, so it means the same thing....

And FiOS voice isn't VoIP.....


danclan

join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
FiOS Voice is VoIP, Verizon Freedom essentials is POTS.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
All FiOS voice is analog voice - no VoIP. SIP and FDV are still considered analog voice, since the ONT provides analog dial tone....


bohratom
Jersey Shore is back again.

join:2011-07-07
Red Bank NJ
reply to rchandra
I get a kick out of people who think they know more about FIOS then nycdave does. Its pretty obvious to me, as someone that works in the telecommunications sector, that nycdave is a high ranking official in their engineering department. At first I thought he was probably just someone from their network operations center but his inside knowledge of FIOS strategic plans far and exceeds what they would know. Come on Dave, tell me if Im close?


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17

1 recommendation

Yea, I'm a high ranking official at the bottom of the food chain


rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105

1 edit
reply to nycdave
As they say, it's all a matter of programming (and a little bit of hardware). The gear on each end which controls which bits get stuffed where (the ONT and whatever's on the Verizon end) doesn't have any programming in them which would take the bits coming from/to your standard U interface and stick them on the fiber in a way which would be compatible. Not enough demand, not enough companies (maybe none) would produce equipment (such as an ONT) which would do that. I mean, surely the voice for the FiOS Phone service is sent over the fiber digitized, just probably in a different format. I was just hoping there would be for example enough businesses with non-IP phone systems (would have PRI or T-1 trunking) who would want that sort of thing. :-(

Yeah...I wouldn't necessarily think VOIP, like others here seem to think...there simply is no requirement for an IP layer at all.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.

Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck!


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to batsona
Most carriers are dumping true PRIs for SIP. We use Adtran TA900s to do this in our network. The customer facing side is a PRI and the side facing us is SIP.

We have the ability to hand a customer a true PRI off of a partner's 5ESS but it's probably been 2-3 years since someone HAD do have this. No one really want's to pay the difference for this which really isn't that much.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to nycdave
It's not that it's impossible it's that it cuts into other Verizon business products. It's a business decision not a technological limitation.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to rchandra
"I was just hoping there would be for example enough businesses with non-IP phone systems (would have PRI or T-1 trunking) who would want that sort of thing."

This fits 70-80% of our voice traffic. We have a lot of customers that can't upgrade to VoIP based PBXs (think Hotels) without a HUGE capitol expense. We run SIP trunks across all kinds of connections and use an Adtran TA900 to hand that off to the customer using PRI/T1/POTS. I have some customers with some really old PBXs. I think the oldest one out there was installed in the late 70s / early 80s.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to nycdave
said by nycdave:

All FiOS voice is analog voice - no VoIP. SIP and FDV are still considered analog voice, since the ONT provides analog dial tone....

So by that logic, Magic Jack and Vonage are considered analog voice, "since the ONT ATA provides analog dial tone..."?
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
Nope. None of the voice-grade FiOS products are true VoIP like Vonage and Magic Jack. FiOS voice uses either circuit switched or packet switched backhaul, and they never touch the public internet....

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5

1 edit
said by nycdave:

Nope. None of the voice-grade FiOS products are true VoIP like Vonage and Magic Jack. FiOS voice uses either circuit switched or packet switched backhaul, and they never touch the public internet....

VoIP (i.e. Voice over Internet Protocol) can be over a controlled network or over the Public Internet. Either way it is still VoIP.

A typical deployment would see the VoIP streams on the GPON network converted to GR-303 through a Media Gateway to talk to a legacy switch, or left as RTP to talk to a softswitch.

Even if Verizon is using ATM BLES, it is still not "analog voice".

I think the problem you have is your lack of distinguishing Voice over Internet VoIP from controlled network VoIP - they're still all VoIP. Regardless, FiOS is by no stretch of the imagination an analog voice service simply because there's Tip & Ring coming out of the box screwed to the wall.

Although it is possible to stuff a TDM packet inside of GEM encapsulation, I've never seen it done in a current deployment.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3
HeadSpinning - I can assure you that nycdave knows what he is talking about.


ilikeme
I live in a van down by the river.
Premium
join:2002-08-27
Sugar Land, TX
kudos:1
reply to HeadSpinning
FIOS Voice is not VoIP. All FIOS voice does is ride over the same fiber line to the customers premises. Once it hits the local switch it is split off. FIOS voice does not even have an ip address.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to PoloDude
said by PoloDude:

HeadSpinning - I can assure you that nycdave knows what he is talking about.

I'm sure he thinks voice riding on a fibre optic cable is analogue, but it is not.

His statement was that FiOS is analogue voice. It is clearly not.

If it were analog voice, it would not require a digital adapter at the home nor would it require a battery supply at the home. It is voice derived from a digital connection to the home. That is fundamentally different from an analogue tip and ring connection served from a central office or SLC in that it requires local terminating equipment and power at the prem and has the associated limitations.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
Guess what? The FiOS ONT is just like a SLC for voice....It is an updated SLC or RT. So I guess by your definition of a SLC that FiOS voice is analog.....


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to rchandra
BRI's are a dying technology and equipment manufacturers have been slowly moving away from it in favor of IP. Verizon has also started to grandfather it although I think certain flavors are still available.
--
Add a signature here


djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO
reply to HeadSpinning

Regardless, FiOS is by no stretch of the imagination an analog voice service simply because there's Tip & Ring coming out of the box screwed to the wall.

Analog voice service doesn't exist anymore. It's going to be digitized somewhere.

My house was built in 1997 and there is no copper path to the CO. It's copper to a remote terminal vault 3 miles away, and fiber to the CO. I had ISDN service through this remote terminal. So it's certainly possible to have ISDN, even if you have fiber in the loop prior to the CO. Whether Verizon has or ever will bother to implement it for FiOS loops is another question.
--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to nycdave
said by nycdave:

Guess what? The FiOS ONT is just like a SLC for voice....It is an updated SLC or RT. So I guess by your definition of a SLC that FiOS voice is analog.....

You also said that SIP and FDV are analogue when clearly SIP has an IP address and uses VoIP...

"All FiOS voice is analog voice - no VoIP. SIP and FDV are still considered analog voice, since the ONT provides analog dial tone...."

Just because the Verizon marketing people want to position FiOS voice as analogue doesn't make it true.

While I agree that FiOS digital voice clearly is not the same animal as Magic Jack and Vonage, and provides as close an emulation as possible of an analogue service as can be provided on a packet or cell switched network, if it is analogue because it provides a jack at the house to plug in a POTS phone then by THAT definition, so are the rest.

ATM BLES is exactly that - Broadband Loop EMULATION, and SIP ... If you're debating that SIP is not IP, then you really need to do some reading.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to djrobx
said by djrobx:

Analog voice service doesn't exist anymore. It's going to be digitized somewhere.

Tell that to nycdave... He says FDV and SIP are analogue.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
reply to HeadSpinning
Well I'm not here to debate SIP is IP when it clearly isn't....SIP and IP are 2 different protocols.

SIP employs design elements similar to the HTTP request/response transaction model.[5] Each transaction consists of a client request that invokes a particular method or function on the server and at least one response. SIP reuses most of the header fields, encoding rules and status codes of HTTP, providing a readable text-based format.

From Wikipedia.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:17
reply to HeadSpinning
And since you decided to hijack this ISDN over FiOS thread, I'm done with responding to you.