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nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave to cramer

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Re: [Northeast] ISDN BRI possible over FiOS?

OK, well let's put it this way - no FiOS equipment vendor can do ISDN over FiOS, so it means the same thing....

And FiOS voice isn't VoIP.....

danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

danclan

Member

FiOS Voice is VoIP, Verizon Freedom essentials is POTS.

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave

MVM

All FiOS voice is analog voice - no VoIP. SIP and FDV are still considered analog voice, since the ONT provides analog dial tone....

rchandra
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rchandra to nycdave

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As they say, it's all a matter of programming (and a little bit of hardware). The gear on each end which controls which bits get stuffed where (the ONT and whatever's on the Verizon end) doesn't have any programming in them which would take the bits coming from/to your standard U interface and stick them on the fiber in a way which would be compatible. Not enough demand, not enough companies (maybe none) would produce equipment (such as an ONT) which would do that. I mean, surely the voice for the FiOS Phone service is sent over the fiber digitized, just probably in a different format. I was just hoping there would be for example enough businesses with non-IP phone systems (would have PRI or T-1 trunking) who would want that sort of thing. :-(

Yeah...I wouldn't necessarily think VOIP, like others here seem to think...there simply is no requirement for an IP layer at all.

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

"I was just hoping there would be for example enough businesses with non-IP phone systems (would have PRI or T-1 trunking) who would want that sort of thing."

This fits 70-80% of our voice traffic. We have a lot of customers that can't upgrade to VoIP based PBXs (think Hotels) without a HUGE capitol expense. We run SIP trunks across all kinds of connections and use an Adtran TA900 to hand that off to the customer using PRI/T1/POTS. I have some customers with some really old PBXs. I think the oldest one out there was installed in the late 70s / early 80s.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to nycdave

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to nycdave
said by nycdave:

All FiOS voice is analog voice - no VoIP. SIP and FDV are still considered analog voice, since the ONT provides analog dial tone....

So by that logic, Magic Jack and Vonage are considered analog voice, "since the ONT ATA provides analog dial tone..."?

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave

MVM

Nope. None of the voice-grade FiOS products are true VoIP like Vonage and Magic Jack. FiOS voice uses either circuit switched or packet switched backhaul, and they never touch the public internet....
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

1 edit

HeadSpinning

Member

said by nycdave:

Nope. None of the voice-grade FiOS products are true VoIP like Vonage and Magic Jack. FiOS voice uses either circuit switched or packet switched backhaul, and they never touch the public internet....

VoIP (i.e. Voice over Internet Protocol) can be over a controlled network or over the Public Internet. Either way it is still VoIP.

A typical deployment would see the VoIP streams on the GPON network converted to GR-303 through a Media Gateway to talk to a legacy switch, or left as RTP to talk to a softswitch.

Even if Verizon is using ATM BLES, it is still not "analog voice".

I think the problem you have is your lack of distinguishing Voice over Internet VoIP from controlled network VoIP - they're still all VoIP. Regardless, FiOS is by no stretch of the imagination an analog voice service simply because there's Tip & Ring coming out of the box screwed to the wall.

Although it is possible to stuff a TDM packet inside of GEM encapsulation, I've never seen it done in a current deployment.

PoloDude
Premium Member
join:2006-03-29
Aiken, SC

PoloDude

Premium Member

HeadSpinning - I can assure you that nycdave knows what he is talking about.

ilikeme
Premium Member
join:2002-08-27
Stafford, TX

ilikeme to HeadSpinning

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FIOS Voice is not VoIP. All FIOS voice does is ride over the same fiber line to the customers premises. Once it hits the local switch it is split off. FIOS voice does not even have an ip address.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to PoloDude

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said by PoloDude:

HeadSpinning - I can assure you that nycdave knows what he is talking about.

I'm sure he thinks voice riding on a fibre optic cable is analogue, but it is not.

His statement was that FiOS is analogue voice. It is clearly not.

If it were analog voice, it would not require a digital adapter at the home nor would it require a battery supply at the home. It is voice derived from a digital connection to the home. That is fundamentally different from an analogue tip and ring connection served from a central office or SLC in that it requires local terminating equipment and power at the prem and has the associated limitations.

nycdave
MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY

nycdave

MVM

Guess what? The FiOS ONT is just like a SLC for voice....It is an updated SLC or RT. So I guess by your definition of a SLC that FiOS voice is analog.....

djrobx
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join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

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Regardless, FiOS is by no stretch of the imagination an analog voice service simply because there's Tip & Ring coming out of the box screwed to the wall.

Analog voice service doesn't exist anymore. It's going to be digitized somewhere.

My house was built in 1997 and there is no copper path to the CO. It's copper to a remote terminal vault 3 miles away, and fiber to the CO. I had ISDN service through this remote terminal. So it's certainly possible to have ISDN, even if you have fiber in the loop prior to the CO. Whether Verizon has or ever will bother to implement it for FiOS loops is another question.
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to nycdave

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to nycdave
said by nycdave:

Guess what? The FiOS ONT is just like a SLC for voice....It is an updated SLC or RT. So I guess by your definition of a SLC that FiOS voice is analog.....

You also said that SIP and FDV are analogue when clearly SIP has an IP address and uses VoIP...

"All FiOS voice is analog voice - no VoIP. SIP and FDV are still considered analog voice, since the ONT provides analog dial tone...."

Just because the Verizon marketing people want to position FiOS voice as analogue doesn't make it true.

While I agree that FiOS digital voice clearly is not the same animal as Magic Jack and Vonage, and provides as close an emulation as possible of an analogue service as can be provided on a packet or cell switched network, if it is analogue because it provides a jack at the house to plug in a POTS phone then by THAT definition, so are the rest.

ATM BLES is exactly that - Broadband Loop EMULATION, and SIP ... If you're debating that SIP is not IP, then you really need to do some reading.
HeadSpinning

HeadSpinning to djrobx

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said by djrobx:

Analog voice service doesn't exist anymore. It's going to be digitized somewhere.

Tell that to nycdave... He says FDV and SIP are analogue.

nycdave
MVM
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Melville, NY

nycdave to HeadSpinning

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Well I'm not here to debate SIP is IP when it clearly isn't....SIP and IP are 2 different protocols.

SIP employs design elements similar to the HTTP request/response transaction model.[5] Each transaction consists of a client request that invokes a particular method or function on the server and at least one response. SIP reuses most of the header fields, encoding rules and status codes of HTTP, providing a readable text-based format.

From Wikipedia.
nycdave

nycdave to HeadSpinning

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And since you decided to hijack this ISDN over FiOS thread, I'm done with responding to you.

mackey
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join:2007-08-20

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said by HeadSpinning:

I'm sure he thinks voice riding on a fibre optic cable is analogue, but it is not.

Um, it's quite easy to send an analog signal over fiber WITHOUT converting it to digital. The cable co's have been doing it for years. Just because it's fiber doesn't mean it's digital.
said by HeadSpinning:

If it were analog voice, it would not require a digital adapter at the home nor would it require a battery supply at the home.

What? Analog electronics do not require power? And here I was changing batteries in my portable radios all those years!

I hate to break it to you, but ALL electronics require power. Even your old analog phones require power. Even if the ONT didn't need it, you would still need a power supply to power all your phones as you cannot send power over fiber.

/M
mackey

mackey to nycdave

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to nycdave
From what I've read here and elsewhere, is it correct then that FiOS Voice uses SIP signaling for call setup but the actual audio transport is analog over the fiber?

/M
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer to nycdave

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to nycdave
said by nycdave:

None of the voice-grade FiOS products are true VoIP like Vonage and Magic Jack.

I'm not saying they are -- the customer has no access to the packets (be they ATM or IP.) All I meant was voice content beyond the POTS ports on the ONT are IP. Although, I suppose Verizon could be "backwards" and use ATM if they're feeding voice services from a traditional TDM switch (5ESS, DMS, etc.) [VZ has bought enough companies to have a large museum of these things.]

(For the record, the last Voice circuits I ordered were, in fact, Voice-over-Frame from Time Warner Telecom. Everything is true VoIP now; except the "fax" line which is a linksys SPA.)
HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet
join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to mackey

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to mackey
said by mackey:

said by HeadSpinning:

I'm sure he thinks voice riding on a fibre optic cable is analogue, but it is not.

Um, it's quite easy to send an analog signal over fiber WITHOUT converting it to digital. The cable co's have been doing it for years. Just because it's fiber doesn't mean it's digital.

The cablecos do use RFoG for analogue video, and also use QAM for digital video. That is true. But in the case of FiOS, the telephone and data is sent using digital technology.
said by mackey:

said by HeadSpinning:

If it were analog voice, it would not require a digital adapter at the home nor would it require a battery supply at the home.

What? Analog electronics do not require power? And here I was changing batteries in my portable radios all those years!

I hate to break it to you, but ALL electronics require power. Even your old analog phones require power. Even if the ONT didn't need it, you would still need a power supply to power all your phones as you cannot send power over fiber.

/M

I was referring to local power.

The obvious advantage to analogue phones is that the loop provides the power from the CO. FiOS is a digital telephone, not analogue. The signal coming in to the house is digital, it is converted to analogue at the subscriber's prem. Verizon simply wants to distance themselves from the OTHER digital services like Vonage and MajicJack that, although they employ similar technologies, have disadvantages.

HeadSpinning

HeadSpinning to nycdave

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said by nycdave:

Well I'm not here to debate SIP is IP when it clearly isn't....SIP and IP are 2 different protocols.

SIP employs design elements similar to the HTTP request/response transaction model.[5] Each transaction consists of a client request that invokes a particular method or function on the server and at least one response. SIP reuses most of the header fields, encoding rules and status codes of HTTP, providing a readable text-based format.

From Wikipedia.

Correct, but SIP and HTTP use TCP/IP as their underlying transport mechanism. The media is sent over RTP streams which are transported on UDP/IP. SIP and HTTP run on the TCP/IP model - therefore they are IP. SIP is digital.

I still find it amazing that you would take the position that "FiOS Digital Voice is Analogue".

I suspect that despite the fact that you're an intelligent and knowledgeable person, you've heard others in your company repeat the mantra that "FiOS Digital Voice is Analogue Voice" and you never stopped to even think about how absurd that position is.

buckingham
Doylstown Pa
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join:2005-07-17
Buckingham, PA

buckingham to nycdave

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to nycdave
said by nycdave:

Well I'm not here to debate SIP is IP when it clearly isn't....SIP and IP are 2 different protocols.

To expand upon Dave's comments, SIP (Session Inititated Protocol) is a signaling standard. It's transported over IP (Internet Protocol) The voice, video or other traffic that SIP provides signaling for can also flow over that same IP network, but the media is separate.

-----
Relative to the original questions, BRI and PRI are TDM (time division multiplexing) type technologies with signaling on one channel and media over two or 23 channels, depending on whether or not it's a BRI or PRI. (basic rate interface or primary rate interface) While it's theoretically possible to transport them over fiber, (and many PRIs are), it's a whole different setup from FiOS. And I'm really surprised that the audio industry would still prefer to use BRI...the whole 128kb of bandwidth isn't likely very "special" for bandwidth intensive flows, especially in this age of much higher throughput services being available. I do believe it's used more around live broadcast of voice, but other content would really suffer.
stonecolddsl
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join:2004-01-07
Sarasota, FL

stonecolddsl to nycdave

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NYCDave,

First of all thanks for all the work you put in over the years here at dslreports.

But I think we can end this debate on Fios Digital Voice quickly and clearly.

From Verizon support page
FiOS Digital Voice Service
FiOS Digital Voice is a specific type of Voice Over Internet Protocol (VoIP).

»www22.verizon.com/Suppor ··· 1150.htm

If Verizon is calling it voip why are you so admit that it not. It may not be sip it could be some other type of signaling protocol but it clearly not sending analog down the fiber the ont is switching it to packets and those packets making it to the co softswitch.
HeadSpinning
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join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON

HeadSpinning to buckingham

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said by buckingham:

Relative to the original questions, BRI and PRI are TDM (time division multiplexing) type technologies with signaling on one channel and media over two or 23 channels, depending on whether or not it's a BRI or PRI. (basic rate interface or primary rate interface) While it's theoretically possible to transport them over fiber, (and many PRIs are), it's a whole different setup from FiOS. And I'm really surprised that the audio industry would still prefer to use BRI...the whole 128kb of bandwidth isn't likely very "special" for bandwidth intensive flows, especially in this age of much higher throughput services being available. I do believe it's used more around live broadcast of voice, but other content would really suffer.

We provide services to some radio stations that use APT WorldNet Oslo and Moseley Starlink codecs over TDM T1. These are to connect their transmitters to their studios, or interconnect studios. In one case, we deliver the T1 on fibre to their building, in another, we use an ILEC copper loop with PairGain HDSL2. They also still use ISDN BRI for backup. They use these circuits because they have no packet switching induced jitter, and extremely low latency.

They came to us after being frustrated by the telco that kept wanting to sell them fibre ethernet, which wouldn't work with the equipment they needed to use.

I pulled my last BRI line out of service 10 years ago.

The older ATM based OLTs for GPON used to use a cell based protocol called BLES to provide a full POTS line emulation. The newer devices that lack an ATM bus, and perform the ATM to Ethernet conversion on each OLT card simply use IP. The ONT either uses SIP to go to a soft switch or SIP-PLAR to connect through GR-303 gateway to a legacy TDM switch. Our GPON deployment uses MGCP to our soft switch, as regular SIP doesn't provided the necessary protocol interaction to support all the functions needed for the 911 PSAP interconnection, whereas MGCP does.

You could probably transport a T1 with PWE CES, then run it in to a channel bank to provide BRI service extension, but that's a whole lot of work to go through just for a 128k BRI.

kontos
xyzzy
join:2001-10-04
West Henrietta, NY

kontos to mackey

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said by mackey:

the actual audio transport is analog over the fiber?

Fiber is a digital medium. You cannot transmit truly analog signals over fiber.

More Fiber
MVM
join:2005-09-26
Cape Coral, FL

More Fiber

MVM

said by kontos:

You cannot transmit truly analog signals over fiber.

I suggest you google Pulse Width Modulation (PWM).

kontos
xyzzy
join:2001-10-04
West Henrietta, NY

kontos

Member

From the google summaries:

"Pulse Width Modulation, or PWM, is a technique for getting analog results with digital means. Digital"

"Pulse width modulation is a fancy term for describing a type of digital signal"

"Pulse width modulation (PWM), also known as pulse duration modulation (PDM), is a digital modulation technique whereby the width of a pulse carrier is made ..."

rchandra
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Actually, it is theoretically possible to transport SIP over TCP/IP, but in my experience, far, far more often it is transported over UDP/IP. IIRC, SIPS is a different animal due to needing to exchange certificates and all that.

I also agree that despite the marketspeak and some of the tech people at Verizon calling it an analog service, I can't fathom it being analog except for the sole exception of the interface on the ONT. It would also be theoretically possible to vary the light beam intensity (AM) or color (FM) to actually transmit it over the fiber in analog fashion, but it's far more expedient to digitize the audio and use a digital transmission. Think of it if you will as simply taking an analog telephone adapter (ATA) and integrating it into the ONT (except the typical consumer ATA uses Ethernet).
rchandra

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That'd be "Session Initiation Protocol", BTW.

Live broadcast, yes, or any other application where constraining latency and jitter is an issue. An additional application would be live collaboration and recording, whether it be music or voiceovers or whatnot. Any transport which can offer those constraints would do, and the Internet unfortunately wouldn't qualify. Thus I was seeking a relatively low-cost way to get ISDN to me.

It looks more and more likely that without a SPECIFIC need (say, I already had a job arrangement), a home studio will just have to be put on hold.