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Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Interesting issue

This is related to wifi network, not DSL. Love some insight.
Though i'm pretty experienced with networking, this one has me stumped and all signs show i should have a good solid connection. I'll break it in to two real scenarios i'm trying to figure out. Please keep in mind, this isn't an issue with TSI, though the internet slows down, it's not them. This is a slowdown on both internal network and the outside world

Office is above kitchen on 2nd level, standard built home, nothing special.

Scenario #1 -
Router is in the kitchen (this is where it runs best)
------------
In the kitchen, speed tests all well above my profile.
Accessing LAN through any DLNA enabled device is speedy and all LAN activity is perfect.
Not a single issue. Can abuse the hell out of the router with days of transfer to my DNS-325 with ease.

Scenario #1 -
router is moved closer to ceiling essentially closer to office and no joke, 1-2 feet outside the kitchen on a bookshelf. Opposite wall where it WAS in the kitchen. I've tried another area outside of kitchen, same issue. Unfortunately only 1 phone jack in the house, so i'm limited to how i can setup.
---------------
LAN almost always inaccessible
Internet slow or not working
Searching for sledge hammer because i'm tired of messing with routers

ping -t 192.168.1.1

Pinging 192.168.1.1 with 32 bytes of data:
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time=36ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time=81ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time=166ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time=48ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.1.1: bytes=32 time=227ms TTL=64
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 192.168.1.1:
Packets: Sent = 13, Received = 5, Lost = 8 (61% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 36ms, Maximum = 227ms, Average = 111ms

It's the strangest thing and i cannot for the life of me figure it out. I thought, ok maybe there is *titanium* (joking) in the wall that now separates it from the kitchen now, so i moved it on the dining room table away from this wall, now about 4 ft from where it worked 110%. Same issue. It's like there is a sweet spot, a bubble and outside of this bubble i'm screwed.

There is nothing in the way, no obstructions, no change of wire, jack, router.... nothing. It's simply picked up, lean a little left, place it and now it's a dud.

Other then this issue, this router (WD-8970) is solid and it's been one of the best i've tested in years. Any suggestions are welcome. I'm about ready to start networking the damn house from out of the kitchen.



NytOwl

join:2012-09-27
canada

Is it possible that there's a lot of wiring and/or ducts and/or metal plumbing going through that said wall that could be interfering with the signal?

What about near said bookshelf? Is there a lot of other electronic equipment (maybe older stuff) nearby that could be generating too much EMI thus fucking with the signal?

Just shooting ideas out of my ass here.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by NytOwl:

Is it possible that there's a lot of wiring and/or ducts and/or metal plumbing going through that said wall that could be interfering with the signal?

What about near said bookshelf? Is there a lot of other electronic equipment (maybe older stuff) nearby that could be generating too much EMI thus fucking with the signal?

Just shooting ideas out of my ass here.

Anything to go over is good with me, so shoot away. As for your questions.

Bookshelf's have nothing electronic around them, not even within 10 ft of them. The wall in question or partition that is the difference from where it was and is (during this test) is literally 5 inches thick. Only wires inside are that of the phone jack. All electrical for upstairs runs up through a different wall.

Even so, running this test with router on the dining table, back at about same height it was on the kitchen counter, same issues and this is away from that wall in question. Right now as i write this i moved it to the wallunit in the livingroom, ran a phone wire out there to test. Surprisingly SNR and all is exactly the same, so no loss there but same problems.

I should mention, as i'm recently switched everything in the house to wireless N, router runs in N mode only. I'm too tired to research right now on if N only with TKIP has any disadvantages or not but i'm going to test further tomorrow.

Thanks for shootin anything my way, shooting ideas never hurts.

kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

I think there is something (or many things) in your walls that could be causing this. Furnance ducts, electical wiriing, water pipes, thermostat wires. Wire mesh to hold plaster on the walls (or anything else that uses the wiremesh in the wall)

Either amplifiing it somehow (unlikely), or more likely, interfering.

N only could be it too, because it won't drop-down to the lower speeds if it needs to, to keep signal working.
--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

And some insulating wall linings have an aluminum foil backing or shielding too that might be in your walls possibly. The paint on the walls might even be lead based if its an older house.



oceros

join:2013-07-20
St Thomas, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to Tx

sounds like you've banged your head against the wall a while on this one..

if its only the wifi giving you issue, play around with the wifi signal channel. get it off auto and set a specific channel and just keep flipping it til it works or use a wireless network analyzer to have a headstart.

seems odd that a few feet would cause such issues but in my experience, adjusting the wifi channel works miracles. 100% of the time, it works, every time.


BrianON

join:2011-09-30
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

3 edits
reply to Tx

A decent tool with a free version for checking home wifi channels is inSSIDer for Home (»www.metageek.net/products/inssider/).

Positioning can also effect how other wireless devices see your signal. This can change how well they cooperate with it to avoid interference. "Wireless devices"" being all of them - neighbor's access points, laptops, cellphones, Xbox etc. Everything on or overlapping the channel your using.


jwillisbarri

join:2005-03-22
Barrie, ON
reply to Tx

Could be the n signal. Some older wifi devices don't play nice if there is n signal. Dad had an older receiva radio from England and if n was turned on it did not work well. If I had b or g or bg mode it worked fine.



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to BrianON

said by BrianON:

A decent tool with a free version for checking home wifi channels is nSSIDr for Home (»www.metageek.net/products/inssider/).

Positioning can also effect how other access points see your signal. This can change how well they cooperate with it to avoid interference.

Or Nirsofter's tools: Wireless Net View


and don't forget the OUI.txt file.
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Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

BrianON

join:2011-09-30
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

Click for full size
I find the graphs and information shown in inSSIDer do a better job of showing which channels are congested along with how they overlap etc.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

Either is good. I use both on my laptop for different reasons.



PlatooN

join:2007-02-13
Kitchener, ON
reply to Tx

Another thing to keep in mind when positioning is PAPER!

paper is a mega insulator, and KILLS wifi. passing wifi through a full filing cabinet can murder a signal.



TSI Support2
TSI Support
Premium
join:2009-09-28
Chatham, ON
reply to Tx

@TX, as most people are aware, TSI is not allowed to support routers or wireless. Also I am doing this on my own time. Is it possible to reverse the configuration... Move router to office and computer to kitchen? Also is the house open concept or tradional build, clear path for signal as apposed to blocking walls? Off the record, just curious, as I have a similar issue.

Stavros...



Treegravy
Premium
join:2011-04-21
canada
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to Tx

Hmm. I'm kind of chuckling because trouble shooting this nebulous stuff is sticky wicketty. Did you try moulding some tin foil underneath the router to sort of beam the signal up? If you try that make sure to place the router on stand offs to dissipate heat (which should be done anyway as a precaution regardless).



oceros

join:2013-07-20
St Thomas, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by Treegravy:

Hmm. I'm kind of chuckling because trouble shooting this nebulous stuff is sticky wicketty. Did you try moulding some tin foil underneath the router to sort of beam the signal up? If you try that make sure to place the router on stand offs to dissipate heat (which should be done anyway as a precaution regardless).

I'm definitely chuckling after reading that. Not that it isn't worth a shot but its still hilarious


evil_gusgus

join:2008-04-14
London, ON
reply to Tx

When you move it, are it's antenna aimed differently?



Treegravy
Premium
join:2011-04-21
canada

1 recommendation

reply to oceros

lol, Mr Bean buys a telly and the signal only comes in with him sitting nude in the cardboard box it came in. (apologies to OP)


alpovs

join:2009-08-08
reply to Tx

Do you have a wireless hydro meter? Where is it located relative to those router positions? Try to find out what frequency it uses in your region. It is very hard to find out. Even if it is not 2.4GHz it can still cause interference if you place the router very close to the meter.


Fraoch

join:2003-08-01
Cambridge, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

1 recommendation

said by alpovs:

Do you have a wireless hydro meter? Where is it located relative to those router positions? Try to find out what frequency it uses in your region. It is very hard to find out. Even if it is not 2.4GHz it can still cause interference if you place the router very close to the meter.

Ooh that's a good one, never thought of that.

Other sources of 2.4 GHz interference:

- microwave oven (obviously a big issue in a kitchen, but it only occurs when the oven is on)
- older 2.4 GHz cordless phones (not the newer DECT 6.0 ones or the really old 900 MHz ones)
- Bluetooth devices
- baby monitors (even from a neighbour)


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

Click for full size
Thats why spectrum analyzers are awesome
The pic is a wireless video transmitter that killed his wireless internet service when on the same channel.
Do you have one of those?
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

Fraoch

join:2003-08-01
Cambridge, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by Inssomniak:

The pic is a wireless video transmitter that killed his wireless internet service when on the same channel.

"Well there's yer problem!"



Pretty neat spectrum graph there, and very obvious.


jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON

time to start getting 5Ghz devices or at least forcing them to 5Ghz.


kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

5GHz has more line-of-sight issues compared to 2.4GHz though



jmck
formerly 'shaded'

join:2010-10-02
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Start Communicat..

said by kevinds:

5GHz has more line-of-sight issues compared to 2.4GHz though

yes, you effectively get less distance but it usually makes up for it by having less noise affecting.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to Tx

Wow, appreciate the suggestions. I've run a survey around here some time ago and channel 1 to 4 are my best options, though channel 4 obviously peeks in to a few of the more popular channels 6-7-8. One interesting comment was the wireless hydro meter. I think we do, it is the digital meter and since i never see any of the guys around anymore i'm going to side with the theory it's the wireless reader and yes it is near this. The meter is actually on the next wall in the room outside. Maybe the wall in the kitchen, when in the kitchen blocks the interference between it and the router but when i bring it outside of the kitchen (livingroom, dining room) it's only a wall away from this meter. It's an older, traditional home, with baseboard heaters so no ducting.

This said, the only reason i'm really concerned to get the router outside the kitchen is i have one of those network receivers i use for my home theater, net radio etc. So as a solution i thought i'd setup the old WRT54G and repeat but never knew the repeater function is for wireless only until an hour ago.

Clearly the router should just go back to where it works best, i can work with that, but now to find a way to get the receiver online without a 50 ft cat5.

Any of those pocket router/repeaters like the TP-link TL-WR700N repeat and allow wired connections? Unfortunately the receiver is wired only. I used to love and enjoy troubleshooting this crap but i very much dislike doing it for my own stuff. I don't mind going to a friends, family and setting up their network all day long, but my own i hate. I believe many are like this lol.

Again thanks for the tons of suggestions.


BrianON

join:2011-09-30
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

1 edit

There are 'WiFi to Ethernet adapters' available.

Netgear WNCE2001 for example (»www.bestbuy.com/site/NETGEAR---I···=1002457)
TRENNet TEW-654TR, run in client mode (»www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as···EW-654TR)


petecool

join:2011-09-22
Calgary, AB
kudos:1
reply to Tx

Look for "client bridge" mode in the Wifi settings for your WRT54G... if you have DD-WRT

You configure the wifi settings, the router becomes a wifi client device, and all 4 ethernet ports are bridged to the wifi



TemporalFlux
Premium
join:2003-08-07
Ont, Canada
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Tx

Just brain storming here. Look at the radiation pattern of a dipole antenna. It's kind of like a doughnut. Could your office be in the doughnut hole of your router antennas?
--
If you need a compiler to compile a compiler then where did the first compiler come from?


towerdave

join:2002-01-16
O Fallon, IL
reply to Tx

Others have mentioned software to figure out what channels are best/worst. I would recommend, if you have a smartphone, downloading one to your phone. Then you can use it while you move around in your house to see how the signals are affected.

TD



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by BrianON:

There are 'WiFi to Ethernet adapters' available.

Netgear WNCE2001 for example (»www.bestbuy.com/site/NETGEAR---I···=1002457)
TRENNet TEW-654TR, run in client mode (»www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as···EW-654TR)

Thanks for the links. Appreciate it. Could have used something similar many years ago for a printer or two

said by petecool:

Look for "client bridge" mode in the Wifi settings for your WRT54G... if you have DD-WRT

You configure the wifi settings, the router becomes a wifi client device, and all 4 ethernet ports are bridged to the wifi

It is DDWRT and i tried that. Wifi and wired gets an IP directly from primary router. Wifi gets online with ease, but wired doesn't. I can access primary router firmware and all if wired by trying to reach the net has proven a PITA. At the very minimum, if i can get DDWRT to repeat for wired clients it would solve some issues since i'd put the primary router back in the kitchen above the fridge or something and the secondary where the primary is right now that struggles to provide internet to ayone in the house.

said by TemporalFlux:

Just brain storming here. Look at the radiation pattern of a dipole antenna. It's kind of like a doughnut. Could your office be in the doughnut hole of your router antennas?

At this point anything is possible but i am feeling like the west side of the house is the dead zone because this is the same issue if the router is in basement on the west side. Place it on the east side and things get better.

said by towerdave:

Others have mentioned software to figure out what channels are best/worst. I would recommend, if you have a smartphone, downloading one to your phone. Then you can use it while you move around in your house to see how the signals are affected.

TD

I don't know why i haven't tried it since a few have suggested it but i'll grab something on the phone, android if there is anything you recommend and take the walk and see how busy the area is.