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aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
reply to crgauth

[Channels] Re: MPEG-4 is now being used for the .TV channels

said by crgauth:

I don't understand people that fill a 3TB drive.
Are you keeping shows for historical purpose (vs burning to DVD).
That would make some sense.
I would just be concerned that you are a HD failure away from losing all that content.

3TB of storage is nothing. I have 150TB available on my home network between my WHS, three unRAID servers, TiVo desktop machine and other NAS devices.
The 3TB of storage on my TiVo is only local storage. I record alot of things because I never know what I will be in the mood to watch. So I want a wide variety of choices when I sit down to watch something.


Greg2600

join:2008-05-20
Belleville, NJ

said by aaronwt:

3TB of storage is nothing. I have 150TB available on my home network between my WHS, three unRAID servers, TiVo desktop machine and other NAS devices.
The 3TB of storage on my TiVo is only local storage. I record alot of things because I never know what I will be in the mood to watch. So I want a wide variety of choices when I sit down to watch something.

Well that's far from the setup 99.9% of FIOS users will ever use. That's digital hoarding, and Verizon or any provider is not going to tailor their service to that extreme. If for no other reason than letting people save more means they are less inclined to re-buy content on demand or in some other way. Granted they should still move to H.264.

blue_trooper

join:2007-04-17
Exton, PA
reply to knarf829

said by knarf829:

You should ask for help in the A/V forum if you don't understand lossy and lossless A/V file handling.

I'm not sure that you understand the MPEG4 is lossy just like MPEG2. It just has a more efficient compression algorithm resulting in a smaller file/stream-size. They can be converted from one to the other without introducing further loss.

UnnDunn
Premium
join:2005-12-21
Brooklyn, NY

said by blue_trooper:

said by knarf829:

You should ask for help in the A/V forum if you don't understand lossy and lossless A/V file handling.

I'm not sure that you understand the MPEG4 is lossy just like MPEG2. It just has a more efficient compression algorithm resulting in a smaller file/stream-size. They can be converted from one to the other without introducing further loss.

No. They cannot. Every round of compression from MPEG2 to MPEG4 or vice versa removes information. There is no way to prevent this.

Both MPEG2 and MPEG4 are lossy formats. Converting from one lossy format to another introduces more loss. There is no way to have a lossless conversion between lossy formats.

knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1
reply to blue_trooper

said by blue_trooper:

said by knarf829:

You should ask for help in the A/V forum if you don't understand lossy and lossless A/V file handling.

I'm not sure that you understand the MPEG4 is lossy just like MPEG2. It just has a more efficient compression algorithm resulting in a smaller file/stream-size. They can be converted from one to the other without introducing further loss.

This is unequivocally false information. There's not even a debate on it. It's just wrong. It's not an opinion. It's the science of compression.

rantanamo

join:2012-10-23
Garland, TX
reply to Greg2600

said by aaronwt:

said by crgauth:

I don't understand people that fill a 3TB drive.
Are you keeping shows for historical purpose (vs burning to DVD).
That would make some sense.
I would just be concerned that you are a HD failure away from losing all that content.

3TB of storage is nothing. I have 150TB available on my home network between my WHS, three unRAID servers, TiVo desktop machine and other NAS devices.
The 3TB of storage on my TiVo is only local storage. I record alot of things because I never know what I will be in the mood to watch. So I want a wide variety of choices when I sit down to watch something.

digital hoarding? That user is paying for the right to watch, record and store that content. Otherwise it wouldn't be allowed. If they(content providers) consider this something bad, they will only allow a small amount of recording or just won't allow you to record.

As for lossy encoding, I've been reading this forum for a long time, and think there is a huge misunderstanding of what Mpeg 4 is vs Mpeg 2 and what it means to us.

This link should be read as should the documents in it.
»www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sh···t9744241

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to knarf829

said by knarf829:

Exactly not what I said. You take an UNCOMPRESSED SOURCE and compress it to MPEG2 it will be a larger file than if you take an UNCOMPRESSED SOURCE and compress it to MPEG4 at the same quality.

The source is compressed. Literally no one distributes uncompressed source material.

knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1

said by 34764170:

said by knarf829:

Exactly not what I said. You take an UNCOMPRESSED SOURCE and compress it to MPEG2 it will be a larger file than if you take an UNCOMPRESSED SOURCE and compress it to MPEG4 at the same quality.

The source is compressed. Literally no one distributes uncompressed source material.

Exactly. That's why Verizon taking MPEG2 sources and converting them to MPEG4, or taking MPEG4 sources and converting them to MPEG2 will ALWAYS make for a worse quality picture than Verizon sending the video as it receives it.

Shady Bimmer
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Northport, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to blue_trooper

said by blue_trooper:

They can be converted from one to the other without introducing further loss.

No they can not.

Once a source is encoded into either MPEG2 or MPEG4, lossy compression takes place. This means detail (quality) is discarded and can never be recovered. Converting between these formats (or any other lossy-compression format) involves another round of lossy compression where more data is discarded. This is a well known foundational fact.

You can start with any given source and encode that same source using both formats (using the exact same source in both cases). For the same quality the MPEG4 encoding will normally be smaller than MPEG2 encoding. Neither of those compressed formats can ever be uncompressed to match the original source since data was lost in their respective compressions. As a result, it is not possible to convert between the two formats without further degrading quality.


JeepMatt
C'mon the U
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE
kudos:3

I remember this same thread conversation from 4 years ago.

Hope everyone's doing well in FIOS land!
--
"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!"



matcarl
Premium
join:2007-03-09
Franklin Square, NY

Haha, are you sitting back and laughing at us Jeep? Good to see you



charliewatts

join:2013-04-10
reply to Betamax76

How is it that Byron Allen (whoever the hell he is) can't see that none of his channels have enough programming for 24/7? ES.tv and Comedy.tv should be one channel, not 2. MY Destination.tv and Recipe.tv ... should be 1 channel.

LOL --- Has anyone noticed that all these channels can be purchased for streaming for a small monthly fee of $9.99? »www.es.tv/ »www.shopestv.com/


thetick

join:2009-06-22
White Plains, NY

said by charliewatts:

Has anyone noticed that all these channels can be purchased for streaming for a small monthly fee of $9.99? »www.es.tv/ »www.shopestv.com/

Outch I would only subscribe if they paid me $10+/month.

blue_trooper

join:2007-04-17
Exton, PA
reply to charliewatts

said by charliewatts:

Byron Allen (whoever the hell he is)

You don't remember 'Real People'?

webcobbler

join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Betamax76

I now wonder what was the point to convert ESPN 3D to MPEG4 if it is now off the air?

Is it that now whatever content they add to that channel number will be MPEG4?

I am confused.


PJL

join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by webcobbler:

I now wonder what was the point to convert ESPN 3D to MPEG4 if it is now off the air?

Is it that now whatever content they add to that channel number will be MPEG4?

I am confused.

I believe it was converted before ESPN announced they were terminating the channel.

webcobbler

join:2013-03-09
Rumson, NJ
kudos:2

I believe that too.

But since it's now off the air, is that channel number and or QAM space still MPEG4 for whatever content they decide to put on later?

In a sense: That MPEG4 space is now available, since ESPN 3D is off the air. Can we assume that whatever FIOS decides to put on that channel (that ESPN3D took up) be MPEG4, since they already converted it?



matcarl
Premium
join:2007-03-09
Franklin Square, NY

Has nothing to do with that. They converted it to make more room, now that it's gone, they have even more room.


PJL

join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by matcarl:

Has nothing to do with that. They converted it to make more room, now that it's gone, they have even more room.

To amplify slightly, ESPN 3D was converted to MPEG4. A QAM channel is neither MPEG2, MPEG4, or whatever. The content is encoded (not the QAM channel) and it is carried on the QAM channel.