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TheHox

join:2012-05-31

Planning my first backhaul for my new WISP

Click for full size
Click for full size
Well after trolling here for years and trying to setup lease agreements with county, city, and private owners, I finally landed a 100ft grain silo and an 80ft rooftop with fiber access, both for free.

I am looking for recommendations on radios to use for the backhaul. For starters/testing I am just going to tap into the local cable co docsis modem 100mb/5mb internet connection. If things take off, I have 100/100 fiber for $1000/m lined up, with a 1g port interface (aka bursting to 1gps!)

I probably have 5-10 customers that would signup as soon as the system is live, and probably another 10-20 once they hear that "it works, and is faster". So something that can support up to 50 users at 5mb/1mb accounts.

There is another WISP that I will be crossing paths with, and I'd assume their back haul is in 5ghz but I honestly have no clue. I would hope I would be able to find one clear channel in 5ghz. I do have a pair of NanoBridge M5s laying around with 25dbi dishs. Would those be worth a shot or should I invest in something else? I'm not only looking for speed (the closer to 100mb the better, but more important low latency and next to nothing for jitter.

The pictures are looking from the top of the silo to the brown roof top where the fiber access is, and the other picture is of the link info. Thanks again guys.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
Those NBM5s should serve perfectly as a first backhaul.

To start yourself off, you're on the right track.
As you add on, you'll upgrade etc. Eventually bumping up your backhaul.

For the next step, maybe look at some of the MT sextants with the gig ports, it will allow you to squeeze more out of the backhaul without a huge price hike. The biggest drawback to the Ubnt gear is the lack of gig ports. It's nice that the radios can sync at kickass speeds, but worthless as you can't actually network at a decent speed to the radios.

But for what you're doing, you're fine to start with the NBM5s and save some cash out of the gates.

Biggest thing for you to do right now though, is pull out those NBs and do some scanning. Find out what channels your local WISP is using, and where their stuff is. Be a good neighbor and try and avoid their stuff. Play legal all the way! I see a lot of people cut corners and do something in the name of "Oh it's just temporary" and then cry like a baby when it blows up in their face.

Have you thought about network topology or equipment? Mikrotik, PPPoE, RADIUS?


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to TheHox
Don't worry about the other wisp. Get your nano bridges up, they are tight beam antennas so I'm sure you can find a free channel.

What are you using for ptmp? Lots of trees in that pic .
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to voxframe
said by voxframe:

Have you thought about network topology or equipment? Mikrotik, PPPoE, RADIUS?

I have a 75ft tower at my house with one of the NBM5s on it for something else I was doing before, I'll have to put another end on that wire and connect to it and do fire up airview.

Which then brings me to my next question, I have used MT routers in a few PTP setups I did for some apartments sharing internet, some basic config. I am comfortable with MT routers, but know nothing about PPPoE or RADIUS yet.

The WISP I used to use just entered the MAC of the motorola canopy into their system, thats a radius server correct?

said by Inssomniak:

What are you using for ptmp? Lots of trees in that pic .

Yes, trees and hills to top it off. I live by a large lake, so I am going to avoid trees for now. I am going to plan my sales on selling to line of sight customers only(just cover the lake front from each side of the lake). I can see them, and should be open freq to do so.

Once I get into trees, I'm looking at 900mhz which is saturated here. The other WISP has 3 900 sectors on a small 65ft tower 2.44 miles to the east of my silo, and has at least 1 sector on a radio station tower 2.3 miles to my south west.

They have a couple hundred customers, but 80% of them complain about poor service. (No lie, I own another service business and any time I stop and talk to a customer or resident, more than half of them bring up internet because they know I am trying something) In a perfect world, they would just shut their stuff off and go away so I can do it better, and all the locals would be MUCH happier, but that obviously won't happen. They are a large WISP/ISP that from what I gather has about 10,000 DSL and fixed wireless customers, most of which are dropping them left and right for cable or other WISPs that are doing it better. We are on the furthest reach of their coverage area, its a 2hour truck roll for their service techs, they never come here, they won't invest in anything else. Its easy money for them so they are just milking the cash cow until the big guys come to town. I can't wait that long and have nothing to loose, (besides tons of my time).
The TV Whitespace would be nice but there just isnt enough bandwidth there, yet.

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to TheHox
If they are running 900mhz Canopy sectors you have an uphill battle.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TheHox
I'd second that one. Stay far away from 900, especially if you already have an established competitor in that band.

900 (IMHO) is the absolute worst band of them all. 2.4 is wasteland, and it's better than 900.

You'd be better off with strategic relays than trying to cover all with one blast.
Personally I only deploy in 5.8 now as 2.4 is so bad, and 900 is just unthinkable. (But that's me and that's my area)

I'd absolutely think twice before hanging 900 gear.

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to TheHox
I also agree to stay clear of 900mhz if they have canopy.

I sat on 900mhz equipment for almost 2 years before I found somewhere that had a low enough noise floor that I could deploy it.

And I had to deploy it on a tiny little 40 foot TV tower that was in a hole surrounded by tons of trees. It does get good performance for about 1.5-2KM in a densely populated small town.

Also expect your 2.4ghz noise floor to increase significantly as time goes on and use 2.4ghz very very sparingly to keep as much of the spectrum free for yourself.

edit:Also expect to have to regularly re-allocated your entire channel allocation on your 2ghz equipment frequently.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
said by OHSrob:

edit:Also expect to have to regularly re-allocated your entire channel allocation on your 2ghz equipment frequently.

Second, third, and fourth that one!

2.4 Has become an absolute pain in the ass to take care of. It's a constant losing battle and you're only being crushed into a smaller and smaller corner. It will only get worse, never better. So stay away from it while you have the choice. You will save many sleepless nights and many $$ replacing radios.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by voxframe:

said by OHSrob:

edit:Also expect to have to regularly re-allocated your entire channel allocation on your 2ghz equipment frequently.

Second, third, and fourth that one!

2.4 Has become an absolute pain in the ass to take care of. It's a constant losing battle and you're only being crushed into a smaller and smaller corner. It will only get worse, never better. So stay away from it while you have the choice. You will save many sleepless nights and many $$ replacing radios.

Yeap thats pretty much what is happening with us. Although we cant covert all 2.4ghz users, we have moved into the ever so roomy spacey quiet DFS bands
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox
Thanks everyone for the input.

I know 900mhz is going to be next to impossible, so I honestly don't plan to serve anyone that I can't get LOS to. That said, I CAN get majority of my customers in LOS. I have two POPS on each side of the lake, within 100ft of the water. My plan is to have the homes on the lake beam across to the POP on the other side, basically crossing both of my POPs and customers. (If I can make that work)

The other wisp has towers about 2.5miles away from the lake, one of which is just at the tree line, so 95% of their customers are forced to use 900mhz because of poor tower placement. (a cheap rohn25 attached to some guys garage) Everyone gets 1mb/s accounts that are throttled down to 384Kb after a 30mb download.

I am hoping with doing a little more work on the front end and getting better tower placements, with some newer hardware. I can get LOS to majority of potential customers and hopefully sell a selection of good accounts, 2mb/512k, 5mb/1mb, and 8mb/2mb, with no throttling or bursting. At least that is my goal...

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TheHox
If you've got LOS, you're golden for 5.8.

At least then you have spectrum to play with and slice up etc.
I wouldn't even attempt the 900 for NLOS customers, eventually the band will be un-usable, and you will be stuck with a ton of screaming clients that you don't have an option to service. There really is no magic you can do to make 900 or 2.4 (Or even 5.8 for that matter) work once the band is hosed, and there's no magic you can do to replace a 900 NLOS connection with anything else once the band dies. You're up against Canopy in 900, and that alone is a losing battle, not to mention if you have another WISP in 900 already, they're going to hear/feel you out there, and it won't be a friendly hello, it's going to be slamming into each other.

Just pleaaaase stay away from 900 LOL You will thank yourself in a year or two.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox
Well might need to order another NBM5.

I went and climbed my 75ft tower to reset it as I forgot what IP I had it set to last winter. I reset it, then went to pull out my cell to try and access the default login page letting the radio hang via the wire. Well the end wasn't locking, and it fell 75ft to the lawn below.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
Couldn't you have used the reset button on the POE injector down on the ground?


54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL
said by LLigetfa:

Couldn't you have used the reset button on the POE injector down on the ground?

Where is that located?

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to LLigetfa
Only some of the UBNT POE's have the remote reset button on them. I'm guessing his probably doesn't have it.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
said by jcremin:

Only some of the UBNT POE's have the remote reset button on them...

Ja, but I make sure I have one in my toolbag to save having to climb.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to 54067323
said by 54067323:

Where is that located?

»community.ubnt.com/t5/802-11abg-···p/322851
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
I never knew they had ones with a reset, I'll have to look through my stash to see if I have one of those.


Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1

1 recommendation

said by TheHox:

I never knew they had ones with a reset, I'll have to look through my stash to see if I have one of those.

The "AP" (e.g. Rockets) POE's always come with the wider POE, which in my experience always has the reset button.

BTW if you can't find a UBNT device on your network (because you forgot the IP etc) you can always try connecting a Routerboard to it via ethernet - it will show up in the
IP>Neighbors on the RB

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to TheHox
That is why Ubiquiti has a Discovery tool...

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox
Click for full size
Click for full size
Finally got around to getting some gear installed, airview looks clean and clear so far!

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to TheHox
I hope you plan to rotate that Nanobridge feedhorn mount so that the cable opening is facing downward. Sideways like that is asking for water issues!


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to TheHox
@ TheHox how tall are you up?

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to TheHox
Looking good so far... Except get that feed horn mount turned ASAP otherwise you'll be kicking yourself.

Quick NanoBridge tip: We install the feed horns upside-down. Not sideways, just upside down so the locking tabs don't line up. You just cram the horn in and it will hold, and you don't need to worry about popping the tabs out later. This way you don't need to take the damn thing apart or risk breaking things trying to pop the tabs, you just yank hard on the horn and it comes out. Don't worry about wind etc, you really need to give it a solid tug to get it out of there. We have them everywhere and never had a horn come out.

Scan looks nice too
Play time!


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
Yea fix that nanobridge orientation it's gonna leak for sure.
And I do exactly what voxframe does, those things are impossible to get apart on a tower half the time.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to voxframe
said by voxframe:

We install the feed horns upside-down. Not sideways, just upside down so the locking tabs don't line up.

We did the same thing too, but I did break one trying to pull it apart since it was so tight. I've started shaving the tabs down about 50% so they still snap into place normally but are fairly easy to remove. Try it both ways and see what works best. Just don't shave it down too much or it will fall out. It still needs to snap into place with a little click.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31

1 recommendation

reply to TheHox
Finally had some free time to work on this some more.

I setup two links, one from the city to the silo, and one from the silo to my house..

The city-silo link, is about 6 miles, with a NanoBridgeM5, 10mhz width -55 power, -96 noise floor. speedtests come out to around 15ms 40mb down.

The link to my house, I used two NanoStation Loco M5s, -66 power, -93 noise floor, 20mhz width. I get about 20ms and 16mb down speedtest to my house now.

I'll have to work on the links to see if I can get more to my house, I have a 50/5 at the "city" location, looks like I should be able to get 50/5 to my house?

The locos show a distance of 2.5 miles, at -67 power what type of bandwidth should those be able to get?

Thanks everyone! Two years in the works I finally have internet that I can watch any video online at 1080P with no buffering!


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to TheHox
@TheHox you still never answered my question about how tall are you on these links...

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
Oh sorry, not positive, but I think the silo is about 100ft, the roof top maybe 75ft.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to TheHox
take a knife on the horns and shave the tab with one good bite.... wayyy better!