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trog
join:2001-03-25
Scarborough, ON

trog to Ian1

Member

to Ian1

Re: Westlinkcable.net and Westlink Cable is a scam

I think you are being rather harsh on CanadianISP. Remember none of us actually have any real proof on the operations of Westlink Cable. Sure, we can all infer from the fact we never see any tangible proof of their business, but the same could be said for many other small ISPs as well.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

4 edits

Davesnothere

Premium Member

The Nature of this SCAM - Overview

 
Before we get too far into this thread, it should be explained to all of the new readers - just what kind of a scam it is, of which we are accusing Westlink Cable and its predecessor companies.

Simply put, each company is a person or persons, who pretend(s) to be an Internet provider, convinces a potential customer (aka a 'Mark') to hand over some money for service, does not provide the service, and then of course keeps the money.

Rinse and repeat with the next victim, then rename and move the company every few weeks or months.

Each individual occurrence is relatively small, so the RCMP has not shown much interest so far, but they are aware that something is happening.

This country needs updated laws to help the RCMP and other authorities to deal more effectively with online scams and such, but until then, we have discussion boards such as this one, to assist in warning innocent folks when there is a risk of them becoming separated from their hard-earned money.

Westlink has a website, albeit an incomplete and very basic looking one, and they have a contact phone number to place orders, and this is enough to get them started.

They also have advertised on KIJIJI, and have maintained listings at Canadian ISP, a long-standing informational website about - yes, Canadian ISPs.

Further side effects of this illicit operation are the possibility of additional credit card charges, and even identity theft, as one crime can easily lead to another, once a scammer becomes more experienced and confident.

Feel free to add more info, or correct me, if I have missed or misstated something important.
donkey77
join:2008-04-08
Montreal, QC

donkey77 to trog

Member

to trog

Re: Westlinkcable.net and Westlink Cable is a scam

Many people on many occasions have asked WestLink for tangible proof, even a shred of proof as to their legitimacy, and at each turn they have lied, ignored, fabricated evidence and denied these requests.

So until they can show proof, WESTLINK IS A SCAM!

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to trog

Premium Member

to trog
said by trog:

I think you are being rather harsh on CanadianISP.

Perhaps. But then again, my question stands. Does Canadianisp perform any checks at all? If the answer is no, then it stands to reason that any fraudsters pretending to be an an ISP (like John Banks or whatever) would list themselves there for google reasons. So if the answer is no, is such a listing service, useful, or harmful?

Shrugs
@videotron.ca

Shrugs

Anon

said by Ian1:

Perhaps. But then again, my question stands. Does Canadianisp perform any checks at all? If the answer is no, then it stands to reason that any fraudsters pretending to be an an ISP (like John Banks or whatever) would list themselves there for google reasons. So if the answer is no, is such a listing service, useful, or harmful?

He was called out in the other topic as well. Check it out. He even replied.

But to answer your question, no his site is about as useful as tits on a bull. It's meant for spam. Maybe he gets a cut? Who knows.. He doesn't really give a damn and lets anything and anyone spam on it. But he will delete anyone who points out they are a scam, as we saw.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to trog

Premium Member

to trog
said by trog:

I think you are being rather harsh on CanadianISP. Remember none of us actually have any real proof on the operations of Westlink Cable. Sure, we can all infer from the fact we never see any tangible proof of their business, but the same could be said for many other small ISPs as well.

 
You may be correct that some of our evidence is circumstantial.

However, in MY understanding of ISP operations, there are some things which ALL ISPs, no matter how small, must have in order to FUNCTION as ISPs, such as a block of IP addresses dedicated to them and their customers.

Neither Westlink Cable, nor any of their named alleged predecessors, has that, for example.

And then there is the fudging of the speed tests.

A REAL Internet provider, and/or their customers, would be ready, willing, and able, to show REAL examples of these.

We do not care exactly how fast the service is, but other associated data would prove whose customer is really performing the test.

There are more factors, but I think those to be the main ones.

Feel free to add more info, or correct me, if I have missed or misstated something important.

= = = = = = = = =

As for Canadian ISP, they are in a difficult position due to their OWN raison d'etre, and they have stated so already in the DSLR forums, but admittedly, Canadian ISP's apparent endorsement fuels the fire that Westlink might just be a REAL Internet provider, when instead they are a FAKE one.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by Davesnothere:

Canadian ISP's apparent endorsement fuels the fire that Westlink might just be a REAL Internet provider, when instead they are a FAKE one.

And it may not be an endorsement. But you're right, it's an apparent one. CanadianISP argued the legalities before, but I am not sure if he/or she has consulted an actual attorney re: potential liabilities. If I were bilked out of some money by Johnnie (such as if I had a recent lobotomy) it might occur to me to sue everyone in a country mile, including the ISP listing service that listed the company that was in NO WAY EVER, an actual ISP.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

 
Yes, IMNSHO, Canadian ISP has become an unwitting catalyst/accessory to the unfortunate financial fate which has been and continues to be befalling honest trusting consumers in this particular series of instances.
donkey77
join:2008-04-08
Montreal, QC

donkey77

Member

For what it's worth, Cable Gator appeared on the CCTS website's partners page, add them to your list of people/companies to sue

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

 
Has Westlink been listed at CCTS ?
TBBroadband
join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

TBBroadband to Davesnothere

Member

to Davesnothere
So by what you have posted, my company is a scam? because we do not use our own IP Space but use our partner's IPs??? And we are small as well but only service business 2 business.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to trog

Premium Member

to trog
said by trog:

Remember none of us actually have any real proof on the operations of Westlink Cable. Sure, we can all infer from the fact we never see any tangible proof of their business, but the same could be said for many other small ISPs as well.

Trog, please be sure to read this:
said by donkey77:

Many people on many occasions have asked WestLink for tangible proof, even a shred of proof as to their legitimacy, and at each turn they have lied, ignored, fabricated evidence and denied these requests.

So until they can show proof, WESTLINK IS A SCAM!

peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to Ian1

Member

to Ian1
said by Ian1:

And it may not be an endorsement. But you're right, it's an apparent one. CanadianISP argued the legalities before, but I am not sure if he/or she has consulted an actual attorney re: potential liabilities. If I were bilked out of some money by Johnnie (such as if I had a recent lobotomy) it might occur to me to sue everyone in a country mile, including the ISP listing service that listed the company that was in NO WAY EVER, an actual ISP.

If you could validate that CanadianISP had notice they were a fraud or potential fraud and they didn't do their due diligence to establish their legitimacy their passive acceptance would make a class action viable. If I were CanadianISP I would be on the horn to their litigators.
trog
join:2001-03-25
Scarborough, ON

trog to PX Eliezer1

Member

to PX Eliezer1
I am fully aware of that; I have been reading all the postings on this. All I am saying is we do need to be somewhat careful. For instance, has any member actually signed up for service and seen what happens?

If we had real tangible proof of a scam it would be one thing.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to TBBroadband

Premium Member

to TBBroadband
said by TBBroadband:

So by what you have posted, my company is a scam? because we do not use our own IP Space but use our partner's IPs??? And we are small as well but only service business 2 business.

 
You make an interesting point, but I suspect that your company has other redeeming qualities, such as actually providing service to those who give you money for it, and I think that you know that we are not talking about you here.

We have not named your company either, and I can see from your DSLR profile page that you do not seem to be hiding anything which we would regard as important.

If you should be interested enough in what we are doing to read the longer thread linked in the OP, it will quickly become clear who we are targeting.

Cheers !
donkey77
join:2008-04-08
Montreal, QC

donkey77 to trog

Member

to trog
Got an extra $50 lying around? Sign up for their "internet service" and document how it goes.

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1 to peterboro

Premium Member

to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by Ian1:

And it may not be an endorsement. But you're right, it's an apparent one. CanadianISP argued the legalities before, but I am not sure if he/or she has consulted an actual attorney re: potential liabilities. If I were bilked out of some money by Johnnie (such as if I had a recent lobotomy) it might occur to me to sue everyone in a country mile, including the ISP listing service that listed the company that was in NO WAY EVER, an actual ISP.

If you could validate that CanadianISP had notice they were a fraud or potential fraud and they didn't do their due diligence to establish their legitimacy their passive acceptance would make a class action viable. If I were CanadianISP I would be on the horn to their litigators.

Given that CanadianISP is a member, and poster on this very topic, it would be a VERY short bridge to follow.

That was my point. CISP, I get it that you have a site about Canadian ISPs. However if to be listed as one consists of "guy gave me 10$", you'll understand if we consider the data worthless.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

 
So there is a fee involved with listing your ISP op at CISP ?

Ian1
Premium Member
join:2002-06-18
ON

Ian1

Premium Member

said by Davesnothere:

 
So there is a fee involved with listing your ISP op at CISP ?

I have no idea. The 10$ figure was rhetorical.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

 
Good to know, as I was considering seeking a listing there for my yet-to-be-named company, to see what CISP's process is.

'Davesnothere Communications' !

Yes, that kinda has a ring to it.

somrandomguy
@distributel.net

somrandomguy to donkey77

Anon

to donkey77
They should have a GST/HST/PST number depending where they operate from, but they must have a business license to operate anywhere in Canada.

Screw speedtests, ask for the company paperwork.
No paperwork, no company and is fraud.
donkey77
join:2008-04-08
Montreal, QC

donkey77 to Davesnothere

Member

to Davesnothere
I'm going to start my own "isp" and use CCTS and CanadianISP!

I shall call it, "CompuGlobalHyperMegaNet"

o wait, that company already exists perhaps next time.
PX Eliezer1
Premium Member
join:2013-03-10
Zubrowka USA

PX Eliezer1 to trog

Premium Member

to trog
said by trog:

I am fully aware of that; I have been reading all the postings on this. All I am saying is we do need to be somewhat careful. For instance, has any member actually signed up for service and seen what happens?

Reasonable doubt is one thing, but....

....I suspect that if you saw a giant fiery meteor plunging towards you, you would not run until you were burned or crushed.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

1 edit

Davesnothere to somrandomguy

Premium Member

to somrandomguy
said by somrandomguy :

They should have a GST/HST/PST [tax] number depending where they operate from, but they must have a business license to operate anywhere in Canada.

Screw speedtests, ask for the company paperwork.

No paperwork, no company, and is fraud.

 
Interesting.

Even MORE interesting is that I do not think that this was raised in the entire longer thread.

Should their tax number be posted on their website ?

Is there a law which governs this ?

Are they obligated by law to provide the company paperwork on request ?
Davesnothere

1 edit

Davesnothere to donkey77

Premium Member

to donkey77
 
CISP site seems to be down, or at least malfunctioning.

It goes to the URL, but no page seems to be present.

Anyone else notice this ?

www.canadianisp.ca

I was all gung-ho to register my brand new pretend ISP company, and now THIS ?!

EDIT : Browser or system resources problem at my end - resolved.

rogersmogers
@start.ca

rogersmogers to Davesnothere

Anon

to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

said by somrandomguy :

They should have a GST/HST/PST [tax] number depending where they operate from, but they must have a business license to operate anywhere in Canada.

Screw speedtests, ask for the company paperwork.

No paperwork, no company, and is fraud.

 
Interesting.

Even MORE interesting is that I do not think that this was raised in the entire longer thread.

Should their tax number be posted on their website ?

Is there a law which governs this ?

Are they obligated by law to provide the company paperwork on request ?

You only need to collect HST if you max over XXX dollars a year.

somrandomguy
@distributel.net

somrandomguy to Davesnothere

Anon

to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

said by somrandomguy :

They should have a GST/HST/PST [tax] number depending where they operate from, but they must have a business license to operate anywhere in Canada.

Screw speedtests, ask for the company paperwork.

No paperwork, no company, and is fraud.

 
Interesting.

Even MORE interesting is that I do not think that this was raised in the entire longer thread.

Should their tax number be posted on their website ?

Is there a law which governs this ?

Are they obligated by law to provide the company paperwork on request ?

If you want to call them out on being frauds, go after them at the business level. Reselling IP space or being a whitelabel with no proper reverse dns does happen.

Registering a business name is required for all businesses in Canada, unless you're using your own name. To open a business bank account, you require one. To purchase insurance, you require one. GST/PST/HST is more fuzzy in that you don't necessarily need to in order to operate, but a proper business would have it.

Of course, to register a business costs about $50 for sole or about $500 for incorporated so it just depends how serious they want to look. Business paperwork would also prove operating dates and none of this "been around for XX years" stuff.

I don't think there's any legal requirements to show to customers, but for all the city level business licenses I've seen require the city business license to be prominently displayed in a retail/office environment where people can see it as proof. A legit business would have no problems giving this information.

So my stance is unless they can produce any paperwork (City or Federal), they are a fraud.
I mean, they have a GST/HST/PST number on their bills right happy customers?

I think there's a website where you can search for it too but too lazy to poke into it deeper.
somrandomguy

1 edit

somrandomguy to rogersmogers

Anon

to rogersmogers

said by rogersmogers
You only need to collect HST if you max over XXX dollars a year.

$30,000 taxable in sales per year.
Which of course a legit ISP with several staff members and a long history of clients would be well above
TBBroadband
join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

TBBroadband

Member

Unless you are NOT a CA based company, you are able to do business there and not collect/charge taxes on services you sell in Canada.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by TBBroadband:

Unless you are NOT a .CA based company, you are able to do business there and not collect/charge taxes on services you sell in Canada.

 
Unclear to me, possibly due to choice of words.

Did you mean 'If' instead of 'Unless' ? (the company is not based in Canada....), because I currently DO deal with some US-based companies for services, without explicitly having to pay taxes.